#230: Dave Hassell (Drummer and Latin Percussionist) (pt. 1 of 2)

This week on the podcast is part 1 of our interview with Dave Hassell, acclaimed British drummer and Latin percussionist.  Dave has been performing for 50 years as a studio session player, live performer, and band leader, performing with musical greats such as Dr. John, Clarke Terry, Art Farmer, and more. He is also an author, maintains a robust teaching studio, and has taught at many of the leading music institutions in the UK. We hope you join us for an entertaining and informative discussion on what it takes to be a professional musician!

In this episode:
Dave opens up about his creative process and sheds light on the importance of authenticity in music writing. He astounds us with his unconventional approach to finding the right tools for music creation, sometimes as unassuming as a house brick! His learning experiences under venerable mentors like Brazilian percussionist Airto Moreira and British drummer Tony Oxley serve as potent reminders of the power of learning from the best.

We also delve into the fascinating yet unpredictable world of performance schedules. Dave's account provides an honest and enlightening perspective on the hectic life of a musician. His advice for fellow musicians? Versatility and a willingness to absorb different cultures are key. So strap in for an unforgettable journey into the rhythm-filled world of Dave Hassell, a drummer who truly marches to the beat of his own drum.

Show Notes: https://www.artsentrepreneurshippodcast.com/episodes/230-dave-hassell-drummer-and-latin-percussionist-pt-1-of-2

Transcript

Announcer: 0:19

Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast. Making Art Work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.

Andy Heise: 1:01

Hello podcast listeners. My name is Andy Heise

Nick Petrella: 1:05

joining us is drummer and Latin percussionist Dave Hassell. He's been performing for 50 years as a studio session player, live performer and band leader, performing with musical guests such as Dr John Clark, terry, art Farmer and more. Dave is also an author, maintains a robust teaching studio and has taught at many of the leading music institutions in the UK. We're really pleased he could be on the podcast because he has a lot to offer those wanting to become professional musicians. Dave, glad you could be with us.

Dave Hassell: 1:35

It's a really honor that you've invited me to get the opportunities to have a chat with him.

Nick Petrella: 1:40

Absolutely Well, let's begin by having you tell us how you got started as a professional musician and what it took to stay with it for 50 years.

Dave Hassell: 1:52

Direction is over 50 years now. It's nearly 60 years, yeah, as a professional musician.

Nick Petrella: 1:59

I had no idea.

Dave Hassell: 2:01

Yeah, yeah yeah, 1965, i turned professional. So you asked me how I got started. I was a latecomer to actually playing, being involved in any sort of music As a child. The only thing that I was really interested in was sport. I hated school. I hated academia. I was quite a good athlete. I unfortunately had an injury when I was about 14, because I was a great potential as a footballer. So my world ended. So I left school. It was the days when you could leave school when you were 15. So I left. I was 15 in November. I left school in December and my parents said, well, you just have to find a job. I was very lucky.

Dave Hassell: 3:00

Immediately I got a job working in Manchester, in Manchester Town Hall, in the accounts department. Very, very few know that. And I hadn't played any music or anything, no instruments, to that point. And it was just shortly after that, walking to work, i walked past. There was a famous music shop in Manchester on Oxford Road called Barrett's. I saw a drum kit in the window And I went home and I said to my mother I'm going to buy a drum kit. She says, well, yeah, if you've got the money, you can buy it. And that was the start of it. Well, so I I my music lessons at the school where I, where I went school in loose forms just amounted to people standing around in a group singing Scottish sea shanties. So I had no, i had no clue what a crotchet or a quaver or quarter note or an eighth note was. But you know, i'm sure you will appreciate this, the connection between maths and music are very, very, very tight, aren't they? So when music was first shown to me, it was in a matter of no time whatsoever. I could understand.

Dave Hassell: 4:22

And when I used to go to work I was sat on a bus which was about a 40 minute drive into Manchester. The people sat next to me on the bus smoking their cigarettes. In those days, right, we're reading the local brag, the local paper, and I I'd managed to get all the Louis Belson Gilbrine's book at Syncopation in 4.4. And I read that as if I was reading a newspaper And I had no problem understanding it. It was just straightforward.

Dave Hassell: 4:59

So I started to take drum lessons after about three months And the first guy that I studied with was a very, very good drum teacher and great mentor to me in my early days was a guy called Jeff Riley, and he obviously saw that there was some potential in it, in what I was doing, so it kind of took me under his wing And he'd start taking me after about nine months, 12 months. He was working in Manchester from 11 till 2. And I was still only what late 16, nearly early 17s And he used to take me down to the nightclub And I used to sit next to the trio playing, watching. And this went on. And then after about the third visit he just turned round to me at the interval. He says you're on Wow Next, you're playing the next set. So that was the introduction. There was the learning, the technical side of it with Jeff, but the main thing was there was so much music happening, live music, and sitting around with great musicians who at that time were very, you know, very welcoming. You know I dread to think what I might have been playing like, but they smiled And they just helped you And it kind of moved on from there.

Dave Hassell: 6:32

And just coming up to my 18th birthday I got offered a professional gig. So I'd only been paying two and a half years And that was the beginning of it. And I can remember going into Manchester Town Hall to see the director of the department that I was in, telling him that I was going to leave, which was unheard of in those days. Right, and he had his glasses on the end of his nose like that, and he's looking across me, a big oak desk. It's absolutely fantastic. And he says, david, i believe you're thinking of leaving us. I says, oh, yeah, yeah. And I said what's he going to do about your pension? I was 18 years old, yeah, You're not thinking about a pension.

Dave Hassell: 7:21

I didn't even think about a pension Retrospects. He was probably right, right, right. But that was it. I left. I worked in some of the nightclubs in Manchester for three or four months. Then I got offered the gig on the Queen Elizabeth Wow, the original, not the Right. And that was it. Coming up to my 19th birthday, as it was well before I was 18, i was sailing on the de Verrazano Bridge past the Statue of Liberty Wow, and that was New York, 1966. Yeah, and may I say I've never been out of work since. That's great, so Well, that was the how I got into it. Nobody in my family were involved with music.

Dave Hassell: 8:18

Yeah, Sorry Now were they thrilled when you quit your desk job? My mother, yeah, i was with my mother. They were fine, yeah, that's great. It was wonderful. They weren't the sort of parents where they'd just say, oh, you've got to do this or you've got to do that. They'd say if you want to do it, you're responsible for your own actions. Yeah, and if it fails, well, you deal with it. Yeah, it's on you.

Dave Hassell: 8:46

You're still going to have to pay a rent. So it was a very I came from a very sort of It wasn't that long after the war, you know Yeah sure About it. So they'd seen really hard times So everybody had to be responsible for their own actions. These days, you know, i get a bit, you know, twitchy about how people looked after too much, and my parents were great.

Dave Hassell: 9:17

They were fantastic. They supported it all the way, which is so important for young players coming through. If you're battling a parental thing, then that can be hard. That can be hard, yeah.

Nick Petrella: 9:33

So that's how you started And that was a great story. I mean, he really painted that well. Now, what did it take to stay with it? for? you said 60 years.

Dave Hassell: 9:45

It's the love, love, it's the passion to play. I've had times in my life when health is not being so great And I've, you know, i've seen that door a couple of times And actually coming back and getting behind the instruments and playing music is better than anything that they're pumping into your body. You know just the spirit, the energy to stay with it. It's just passion. I love doing what I'm doing And it's wonderful to be part of something that you know that you're never going to master. You know it's there, is. There's no end to the journey. The only end is when they're screwing the lid down. I hope those days you know I don't know if it's sounding very flippant here I'll be knocking on the other side saying hang on, i just need to try something else.

Dave Hassell: 10:50

So it's it. I've done it because I've wanted to do it. I've done it because it's put me in contact with some of the most fantastic people I've ever met in my life. Yeah, they're long time friends, you know, and as they all say and isn't? they do something you love and you never have to work a day in your life. And it's so true that I'm a member of a golf club. You know, these days.

Dave Hassell: 11:18

It's great when I, when the members talk to me because they're all of ex lawyers and bankers, right, and I just say they say you're so lucky, you know. I says, well, you could, i don't know if you wanted to do it. Well, we had to hold the line, we had to go down the different route. But I'm being quite cavalier, my needs as a person. I don't want to be driving around in Rolls Royce, that doesn't interest me, right, it's all. It's those kind of other things in life. I just want to be around great people making great music. So that's, that's it. It's very simplistic And then it's supported by serious hard work.

Andy Heise: 12:04

Yeah, and so and that's what I want to ask you about is, of course, you have to be really good at what you do, right, which requires hard work, practice, those sorts of things, but what? so? put that aside, you got to be really good at what you're doing. What other types of skills or abilities are necessary to sustain a career as a musician?

Dave Hassell: 12:29

Oh, it's a hard one That you know. This thing about being talented, that's all subjective, isn't it? I know some people who have greater talents than me, but don't make it in the music business, right, yeah, so we're actually defaulting back to people skills being able to communicate, which again defaults back to what is music about? It's all about communication, it's not? But as a musician, playing has never been about me. I can honestly say that I know not.

Dave Hassell: 13:09

I just love working with other people, and whatever the levels that you're working at, you know you can be great musicians and it's easy. You can be some teammate musicians who you know it can be challenging. You don't sit on your high horse and think, oh, i wish they'd get any better. The challenge then is how can I make that group of musicians sound as good as they're gonna sound? And if we can do it like that rather than just walking out the room, i can't work with these people.

Dave Hassell: 13:47

Then it's another lesson in life, isn't it? It's communication. The years that I was touring in the 70s and possibly the early 80s, i didn't want to be sitting next to people who were not very nice people, just communication. So that's been the secret. Yeah, i have met some musicians that if I knew they were gonna be on the gig I'd back off. But that is not a playing thing, that's a personality thing. That's that other human relationships. Some people can be not very nice.

Dave Hassell: 14:31

Yeah, and you know, i think it was one little comment that Steve Gad made many, many years ago because they were asking him about some of the sort of things. He says yeah, it's life simple, isn't it? You know, play with the people that you know like you're playing. You know, if they don't like your playing, let them get somebody else. It's as simple as that. And I have had no problem, you know, because there's some gigs that you've done for a bit and then you find that you're not doing it. Okay, if you want that person, use them. I don't mind, i'm not gonna fall out with it. The only thing that you ask can you be honest with me? You know if the problem with being a studio player a lot of the time you're being asked to do things by, possibly, somebody. We're talking about producers who don't know what they're asking for. They can only tell you what they don't want.

Andy Heise: 15:33

Yeah.

Dave Hassell: 15:33

Now, if you can't come up with that answer immediately, then their other skill that they must have is that they must allow you breathing space to rummage around and try and find out. If they're not prepared to do that, then okay, then let's go in another room, get somebody else. It's simple, isn't it? So, in the answer to your question is what are the skills? Just communication, people skills, smile. You know, we're engaging something. We're not brain surgeons or heart surgeons. We hope he's gonna die on the table if we get it wrong. That's right, it's really simple. So it's just music and it's music subjective and it's an exact art form. There's no right ways, there's just different ways.

Nick Petrella: 16:25

You've been in business for many years, as we've said, and you've performed with many notable musicians. Has your approach to networking changed throughout your career?

Dave Hassell: 16:36

Yeah, that's a very sort of current word, isn't it networking? When I was coming through the business, i don't think people use that term at all. It's quite interesting to find out when it actually came into the language. The only networking is going to clubs supporting other musicians. Yeah, For me it's not about going right in a letter sending demos off. I know some people will totally disagree with me on this, but in the days when I was really really busy I used to get letters. Oh, i'm a so-and-so drummer, i'd really like to. Could you put me on your debt list? And you just think you kind of smile and just say, well, okay, but do you realize how long that list is going to be? And until I actually see you or meet you, i'm going to use you as a debt.

Nick Petrella: 17:43

You gotta be vetted, you've got to be vetted.

Dave Hassell: 17:45

You've got to be there, haven't you? You don't know what they're like as an individual or as a player, or whether their knowledge is narrow or vast, because this day and age there's a lot of bontric ponies around, people who are very good at possibly little things And I can put my life I'm not even going to say success, but my life down to is the ability, it's variety, it's versatility, to go from one thing to the other And some of the things I'm better at some areas than others, but you know it's. I don't have to be told that I haven't done a good job, You know. You know that if you think, wow, i just think about got by the skin of my teeth, is that have I been found out?

Dave Hassell: 18:43

The life advice is to me never tell anybody you can't do it before you've even tried. Oh yeah, let them try to discover that you can't do it, because if you're a working player and you're a good, it's all about ears. And I always say you've got two or three passes before you're possibly found out, and then you have to engage in other strategies, don't you, to convince them that what they're trying to get you to do, i've actually got something which is better here. So, as long as you do all this with us, you're smiling, you know, and it's an interesting life.

Andy Heise: 19:31

Has working with anyone ever changed your trajectory, like, was there a point in time where working with someone that sort of set you on a different path that maybe you didn't think you would be on?

Dave Hassell: 19:43

What stylistic Yeah.

Andy Heise: 19:47

I don't know, Working with an artist, working, collaborating with someone you know, kind of opened a door for you that you hadn't really even thought about or seen before.

Dave Hassell: 19:59

I actually don't think that applies. If you're working with somebody who is going to be as powerful as that's going to have an influence, you usually find out. They know who you are anyway. I've never gone through that moment where I think I've never done this before. What is this Eureka? I've got to go through that. That has not happened. That has not happened. I've been very fortunate that I've worked with a lot of people from different continents. And again, that thing about if we're offering advice to young players, if the one thing they can do if possible, is travel Travel, because music is a global language, isn't it? You can go anywhere in the world. And if you can play and if these musicians are just doing things and you join in, even if you can't speak the language, it's an unwritten thing that the ears, the way you're reacting to what's going off, is so powerful.

Nick Petrella: 21:13

And what you'll learn societal, cultural That's actually come up a couple of times in the past few interviews travel, the importance of it.

Dave Hassell: 21:22

Yeah, travel is so, so important. The way other sock coaches think about music and rhythm and all those type of things. A lot of people know me for doing a lot of Latin American and Brazilian. The best lesson I ever had in Brazilian music was actually in the 70s when I was touring with this artist called Tony Christie. He was very big at the time And we were doing this big function and there was another orchestra on And this orchestra had a team of three Brazilian players in it And in the dressing room this guy's playing in most amazing pandeira. So I tried to latch on to it, you know, to talk to him, and he was great. So we ended up walking down a corridor and I tried to get some sort of information out of him and he sort of stopped And it was in the days of flares and clogs, you know, the clothes up. So he just took off one of his clogs and he asked me for a drumstick because I was asking about grooves on that And he just started playing his shoe.

Dave Hassell: 22:36

He says the instrument doesn't matter. He says it's in here, It's all about ears and rhythm and life. He says the techniques are easy to solve and some players can play faster than others, more harder than others, But the one thing that's so important is a pair of ears and just knowing when something sounds Well well, the best way to put it. He was playing that rhythm and he was drawing me in. So I use that as a little say and I to many of my students when you play, I want you to draw me in, Don't push me away. Yeah, please don't push me away. Bring me in. I want to be part of what you're doing.

Andy Heise: 23:21

So yeah, sorry, no, and you know, i think about like you said. you're just, you were working your job as a 16 year old and you walk by a window and you see a drum set. I would say that was, that was a moment in your life that I would say it was probably pretty pivotal for you. Yeah, what was it about the drums? Were they were they. You know your favorite color. I'm going to sound terrible here.

Dave Hassell: 23:42

They were shiny, okay, and they were red, yes, and you know I'm thinking back at the early sixties and I came from a real working class area. We did have many shiny things in the house and and that that just it just looked amazing in the wind It was an item of luxury to you.

Dave Hassell: 24:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that can draw you in, can't it? Yeah, and I think that was the first thing that I thought was amazing was that other like when I took my first, first lessons in New York with Jim Blackley. He was living on the east side, he had an incredible apartment on the east side and it was the first time I'd seen thick carpets and central eating. I thought I'd arrived in heaven, you know So, so so that that's the other thing that is pivotal. But knowing that you can't just say I want that, give it me now, because that is a symptom of modern society. Yeah, everything, people want it too quick now. They want the knowledge too quick. They want the physical things too quick. A lot, of, a lot of time.

Nick Petrella: 24:59

So they had a euphonium with lights shining on it. You're totally differently. Nice and shiny, nice and shiny.

Dave Hassell: 25:11

Yeah, it was. You know, I've still got that mental. I can still see it now because where that shop was it's a bar now, you know, but I still used to be a lot of music shops all the way down. Yeah, it's cool Looking down to the R&C MU though.

Nick Petrella: 25:26

Yeah, yeah, so I see on the, on the piano in the back for the, for the listeners, there's a bunch of books and it's written some excellent drum books, some I've used in my own teaching. What advice would you give to those who want to put their thoughts into a book?

Dave Hassell: 25:39

Yeah, It's a very simple answer Do it, commit it. I mean, if you're to achieve something, you've got to start, haven't you Right? So if you want to write a drum book, yeah, pen.

Nick Petrella: 25:57

Yeah, just start.

Dave Hassell: 25:58

And a piece of paper Start empty. Yeah, you know all the books that I have. The reason why I've written certain books, it's a process of me empty in my head, empty in the things, because there's not a great nailer space in it. You know, i'm a drummer. There's not many slots left. So for anything new to go in, i just have to kind of offload some of the bits and bobs, and I know it sounds very flippant to just start doing it, but that's it. You know, you don't wait for inspiration, you start and inspiration will find you. Once you start that process, and whether it's been done before it doesn't really matter. Then you've got to be honest. I've seen, we've all seen, so many drum books that have been written on the back of another drum book.

Dave Hassell: 26:54

You know it's the same thing, and there's only certain things that we can say. We just, but I the first. The first time I was asked to write a book because I've still got all the notes from my lessons from the 60s, i've still got all paper, and that that is another. You know, perhaps it's my generation, my age. I encourage students, even when they come into lessons. Now I says I love your tablets, i love your iPhones, i love all the stuff. Can you bring actual booking and a pencil, because I want you to. Physically, i think there's a process when you, when you engage the hand and the pen you think the monarchy device?

Dave Hassell: 27:39

Yeah, Yeah, if I'm going to write a letter, i'll do it in free hand to start with and then go to the computer. Oh we've got. we've got things happening, particularly in the range and all the cutting paste. you know, these people have little things and they just couldn't paste it. You don't do that when you're writing. It might be similar but it's not a cutting paste. And when I was approached by Kevin Hathaway to write the original Grady Cause for Books, i says well, even then I said what is the to write? It's all been written. So I thought about it. I said I'll tell you what. I'll put 30 or 40 year tunes in, because it wasn't, there wasn't an abundance of play along material then It wasn't, it wasn't available. then We know now that it's like so much stuff out there. Oh, yeah, yeah. So so that all I did was draw up a list of various styles and then we just wrote sort of two minute pieces to each one. So things weren't too long that weren't featuring the drums, but the drums were part of the music.

Nick Petrella: 28:59

Yeah, and that you know just doing it is that comes across. We've had that a couple times. I know that. you know Seth Godin talks about people. He's a marketing person. you know just doing it, and the more you do it, the better you get at it.

Dave Hassell: 29:13

Of course, yeah, yeah, it's, it's. It's not so much, you don't have to practice it, you just have to do it. That's like playing, isn't it? You know, if you, if you get in with a group of musicians and you keep playing, you're getting you this good chance, you're going to get better, rather than just saying I'll study this and then I'll go in the room. No, it, for me, it's the opposite journey. You've, how long have you had a drum kit? Okay, there's some music. You've had it a week like whoosh bang, whoosh bang. Yeah, you're starting to make music, and then you just grow from there. Just be patient.

Andy Heise: 29:55

So drummers and percussionists have lots of toys and gadgets. How important is it to have the right tool for the right job?

Dave Hassell: 30:04

When you say the right tool for the right job, I will make a different way percussionists just hit, shake and scrape things And that can be anything.

Dave Hassell: 30:21

Sure, i've done sessions on house bricks, i've done sessions with all sorts of weird and things. So the right tools, i suppose. If you're going into an orchestral and you've got a good xylophone and it's in tune, yeah, that goes. If you've got good instrument, it's great. I don't have to be too shiny, but it's got to be in tune, it's whatever The rest. all my percussion bags they're incredibly disorganized. There's all sorts of things And, as a percussion player, right tools for me squeaky hammers go down to the toy shop.

Dave Hassell: 31:07

I use them all the time. I use that stuff all the time. So I don't actually have to go into that drum shop anymore or percussion shop. You know, i just walk around the garden or do this. I've done that tree A few years back in Paul Clarvish's home it's at the present moment.

Dave Hassell: 31:27

It's a great bass drum beat. I just saw the shape on the tree and I cut it and I was recovering from serious illness at that time And I just whittled this thing and I did it to Paul because he's a great friend of mine And it's inscribed upon it. It's a Northern saying. It's just a twatter, you hit it hard And he's still using it. He was using it at air studios not long ago. So the right instrument it's all whatever works.

Dave Hassell: 32:06

And my greatest inspiration for that was Aetel Moreira, brazilian percussion player And one of the drummers that I kind of really love the way he thinks about music. There's a famous Dutch drummer called Han Benic who plays free music And occasionally he would. He's been out on tour and he wouldn't even take a drum kit, he'd go into the theatre and just pick up stuff. And I also took some lessons off this very famous British drummer called Tony Oxley who ended up in Tony's still alive, but he would with Cecil Taylor and everybody, all the Americans. And I remember going round to his apartment or his house in Gerard's Cross in the early 70s and just the stuff that was around. It wasn't like a nice snare drum or a nice, just bits of pieces And the music that's being made was amazing. I'm terrible. I get terrible stick for this, but you see this here There's a black beauty. Yeah, that's nice. It's my mouse pad. That's an original. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's the original, it's the mouse pad. Yeah, that's a different nice.

Nick Petrella: 33:32

Got a Ludwig black beauty. I know you can't see that, but we'll link to that.

Dave Hassell: 33:37

Yeah, yeah, sorry, yeah, yeah, Yeah, that's fine.

Nick Petrella: 33:41

So, since many of those listening won't know what a working drummer does, would you mind describing it? what a typical month looks like, encompassing all the revenue streams you enjoy teaching, performing and so on.

Dave Hassell: 33:56

Different stages of my life. I could answer that in many different ways. Yeah, if we're talking about currently, i just do a few very creative bands. I don't take function gigs anymore, don't do that sort of thing, studio things. The session world as you probably know it's happened in the States and everywhere is not what it used to be. The days when we were in at 10 o'clock till 10 o'clock at night, or what 26 shows in the diary. Those days have since gone. They were the Halcyon days. I still get calls occasionally to do things. As long as it's not too far away, i'll do it.

Dave Hassell: 34:48

I do the odd stuff on remote for people as well. And I suppose the teaching at the Conservatoire's because I just don't teach at the one, the Zior and CM, which I've reigned back a bit. I still do the classical but I was doing the pop course at one for several years. I go down to the Royal Academy to work in the classical but doing all the world percussion as the Royal Northern And the Scottish Conservatoire's. And then I do summer schools as well, jazz summer schools.

Dave Hassell: 35:24

So the diary is sometimes you have to put some glasses on and sometimes it's very busy. You can actually read what's on the page, so it varies. There's no such thing as that. This happens on a Monday, this happens on a Tuesday, and my whole life has always been like that, and that is something one or two people have asked me about. That and just say didn't you ever get worried that there was nothing in the diary? And you just say, no, not really. You know stuff will come. You know, build it and though it was going, but you've got to have playing skills.

Announcer: 36:08

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