#231: Dave Hassell (Drummer and Latin Percussionist) (pt. 2 of 2)

This week on the podcast is part 2 of our interview with Dave Hassell, acclaimed British drummer and Latin percussionist.  Dave has been performing for 50 years as a studio session player, live performer, and band leader, performing with musical greats such as Dr. John, Clarke Terry, Art Farmer, and more. He is also an author, maintains a robust teaching studio, and has taught at many of the leading music institutions in the UK. We hope you join us for an entertaining and informative discussion on what it takes to be a professional musician!

In this episode:
Ever pondered the complexities of the music business? Dave decodes it all for us, drawing from the treasure trove of his five-decade-long experience. He talks about the essential life skills musicians need to acquire, the importance of a robust support system, and the crucial role of people skills in this industry. Copyrights, royalties, and the potential pitfalls of sample music - Dave doesn't shy away from discussing these nitty-gritty details. But, what truly sets this conversation apart is Dave's invaluable advice on becoming an inspiring and effective teacher.

In our final segment, Dave  imparts wisdom for those venturing into the arts industry. He underscores the significance of honesty, integrity, and excellence in the world of music. Recognizing the pivotal role of arts in society, Dave calls for greater support from governments in nurturing this sector. Relating from his own journey, he advises aspiring musicians to be true to themselves and take control of their destiny. This episode isn't just for musicians but anyone seeking to enrich their lives with the power of music. So tune in for an enlightening tête-à-tête with this maestro.

Show notes: https://www.artsentrepreneurshippodcast.com/episodes/231-dave-hassell-drummer-and-latin-percussionist-pt-2-of-2

Transcript

Announcer: 0:19

Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast. Making Art Work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.

Andy Heise: 1:01

Hello podcast listeners. My name is Andy Heise

Nick Petrella: 1:05

joining us is drummer and Latin percussionist Dave Hassell. He's been performing for 50 years as a studio session player, live performer and band leader, performing with musical guests such as Dr John Clark, terry, art Farmer and more. Dave is also an author, maintains a robust teaching studio and is taught at many of the leading music institutions in the UK. We're really pleased he could be on the podcast because he has a lot to offer those wanting to become professional musicians. Dave, glad you could be with us.

Dave Hassell: 1:35

It's really honored that you've invited me to get the opportunity to have a chat with you.

Andy Heise: 1:42

You kind of alluded to this, but is there a seasonality to being a performer or a drummer?

Dave Hassell: 1:48

Not in my diary. I can remember again 30 years ago around Christmas and that it'd get very busy because extra shows coming out and then there'd be some really good function gigs. So yeah, that could be seasonal. I think I've only ever done one pantomime in my life and they only did it because the guys in the band were fantastic. So it was a ball for about five or six weeks, so that was seasonal. I've only ever done one summer season in my life and that was in 1968. And since then I've only ever done one show for any length of time. I did Les Mis for six months. It was like being sentenced.

Nick Petrella: 2:45

Doing the same thing over and over again, you mean?

Dave Hassell: 2:47

Well, that is when all about being a player and this is so important is understanding what you're capable of, how you deal with things, not what people are telling you what you should be doing or what you shouldn't be doing and then identifying with. I don't really do that. I'm not very good at doing that. So unless I really have to do it, I'm going to try and find something else. And I'm not very good at turning up at the theatre at 7.30. Les Mis I mean all I can remember about you will understand the Palace Theatre in Manchester. I used to drive in. The show started at 7.30, part my car near the BBC Do the show. It finished at 10.30. It was one of the longest shows in history. I was under the stage, so the whole orchestra was, so I hadn't got a clue what was going on above Right. So all I remember about Les Mis is that there'd be a lot of singing and dancing, then somebody had died and we'd played some music.

Andy Heise: 4:01

And it's a bit.

Dave Hassell: 4:04

And there's nothing that you can get your teeth into. With Les Mis, you're in and out. It's a really interesting shot of play. But at the time I can remember I was learning Spanish and I had Spanish verbs over all my tom-toms.

Nick Petrella: 4:19

You got paid to study.

Dave Hassell: 4:20

I got paid to study. My wife told me when I took it. She says no, don't do it. There you go. She used to dread me coming back about. I used to get in about quarter past 11. We had my parents would stay with me at the time and they used to say, oh, we're quite a bend now.

Andy Heise: 4:49

I digress. Yeah, yeah, no, that makes me think. Phantom of the Opera just closed on Broadway after like a 35-year run, and there were folks in that orchestra who were there on opening night and closing night. Oh, I know, 35 years of the same show.

Dave Hassell: 5:05

But some musicians do that. When I joined the Queen Elizabeth in 1966, there was about three musicians who were on the Maiden voyage after the war, about 1940, say, because it was a troop ship before them, wasn't it? And they were still on. Yeah, they couldn't afford to leave the ship, to not do it. To not do it, it was their life. And I know people in the West End who've been doing shows Mike Hamnut, you know, yeah, which Lion King. He's done it since the opening night. He's still doing it. Oh my, gosh.

Nick Petrella: 5:44

Nigel Shipway is another one. I mean he passed, but I mean how long was he? What was he with cats?

Dave Hassell: 5:49

It was with cats. Nigel passed away, didn't he? Yeah?

Nick Petrella: 5:53

But I mean, he was there. How many years. Oh, it must have been 25, 30 years.

Dave Hassell: 5:58

Yeah, yeah, that's a terrible thought in it. 25, 30 years of cats and then you die.

Andy Heise: 6:05

I mean, I don't know, maybe I don't know.

Nick Petrella: 6:10

Probably not, why, but yeah.

Dave Hassell: 6:12

No, I can think of life being a little bit more, yeah, dynamic.

Andy Heise: 6:21

Yeah, they interviewed the violinist and he called himself a violin operator.

Dave Hassell: 6:29

Yeah, yeah, something yeah, and that type of thing. It used to happen with the Some of the BBC orchestras, sure Musicians, fantastic musicians, going in Absolutely. And then just that thing, it just weighs down, and then they don't really want to open up the case.

Andy Heise: 6:49

Well, I think that's as we've been talking, as you've been talking about. That's obviously not the lifestyle for the type of musician and mindset that you have, but it's their own.

Dave Hassell: 7:03

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I kind of say, you know, I'm glad you can do it Exactly.

Andy Heise: 7:10

I can't do that. I can't do that.

Nick Petrella: 7:12

I can't do that. I want to switch gears on this next question, Dave. So you're also a band leader? You've been a band leader for many years. What do you look for when you're hiring musicians? People who can play. Oh, that's it. No.

Dave Hassell: 7:28

Well, no, no, yeah, the music I play yeah, it's some of the bands that I've been involved in it's very demanding Stylistically. It's very demanding, you know, particularly with the Apetos and there was only a handful of players. I would always make the phone call. If somebody offered me a gig. I'd phone round to make sure the players that I wanted were available before I took the gig. I wouldn't do the other thing except the gig and then just throw anybody in.

Nick Petrella: 8:07

So, when you're, aside from the playing, which has to be job number one, whether any other attributes or soft skills you look for for anyone else that you'd hire, Communication easy to get on with People who you're confident if they put a date in the book that they are going to turn up.

Dave Hassell: 8:28

You know, we all know there's those. There are some players out there who would take two or three and then choose the last one. That is no go. I've lost hundreds of pounds you know, I can't imagine how much From saying I'll do a gig because I've said I'll do it and something's come in which is worth a lot of money and just say I'm sorry, I can't do it. I've committed myself to that and people know that. If they, you know, if I didn't want somebody to turn up to play one of my gigs, I phone Steve Gad Because I know he's not going to come.

Dave Hassell: 9:13

It's just not going to happen, is it?

Nick Petrella: 9:15

Well, the fact that you do that meaning you'll take a gig and when a better one comes along, you say no, I've committed to this. That's probably another big reason you had the privilege of doing this for so long.

Dave Hassell: 9:26

Oh, yeah, of course it is, because I do know people who say, oh no, I know it's very good, but she's very good, we're not sure whether they'll do it. I mean, that's a real horrible thing to be associated with in the business. So there's no loyalty to your word, so it's a hard one. But yeah, loyalty. They say they do the gig, they turn up on time. If we call the rehearsal for three o'clock, that doesn't mean they arrive at 4.30. So they're ready to go.

Dave Hassell: 10:06

And the bands that I work in they know I'm like that Say it's there. I'm telling you it's three o'clock. Three o'clock doesn't mean 3.30 or four. You're ready to play. It's as simple as that. And if they don't turn, if they're not there for whatever reason you know, sometimes it's the legitimate reasons then I'll call it out. You know I won't just sort of wander off. They'll know I'm not happy. Yeah, yeah, it's as simple as that. So, yeah, but I'm being a band leader as well. If you book the right people, you don't have to be a band leader. Mm, hmm, that's good. So so many of the people that I work with you know and currently I have this little group called Hyder. I was out with Andy Scott and Nick Svart last night. Yeah, it's my idea. It's not my band, it's the three of us. The Latin band is the complete unit. So that points again to the sort of people that you hang about with. So if you hang about with unreliable players who might be great players, then you know it's a different call, isn't it?

Nick Petrella: 11:24

Yeah, it impacts you.

Dave Hassell: 11:25

Yeah, yeah, because it does. Yeah, and as soon as it starts to affect me, then I again I'll call it for what it is. I'll not, I'll not sort of go around the outside and try to be nice and it's. And if it's, if I've got my band leader hat on and the band's playing, particularly saying some Latin things, and something's not going right, you know, you've actually got to tell them in no uncertain terms to either stop or move or you cannot hold a polite conversation midstream in music.

Nick Petrella: 12:05

Yeah, yeah, it doesn't exist.

Dave Hassell: 12:09

And you know, but you don't hold that against people, because we've all been lost. We've all been in that situation. It happens, so it's dealing with adversity is it's how you deal with the situation, rather than just you know for sure. Yeah, yeah. It's no mother of improvisation, yeah of course it is yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andy Heise: 12:30

Dave, as we've been discussing, your experience have been vast and wide, ranging from jazz, orchestra, latin ensembles, all kinds of different groups. Has that been? Has that variety been intentional, or is that just kind of the way that that it's worked out for you?

Dave Hassell: 12:50

It's just the way it's worked out. I've always been around people who have listened to lots of music and I can remember starting and in the early days I was offered sort of the job with certain pop bands and things like that. I didn't want to do it because I didn't want to be sort of just just doing that at that stage in my life. So just the variety. It wasn't a consciousness, it's just what I did. I just liked other things. If I went across to my other music room, the walls full of albums and it's so eclectic, you know, it's so diverse, the whole thing, yeah yeah, what's your advice on how young musicians can break into the music scene?

Dave Hassell: 13:48

Well, you've really got to. Are we assuming that they got the ability to do the gig?

Nick Petrella: 13:56

Yeah let's just start from that. Yeah, let's assume they have their prerequisites.

Dave Hassell: 14:00

So they can actually play, because there's a lot of people who try to break in or the parents think that they should be in a band.

Nick Petrella: 14:09

No, these are people who can play.

Dave Hassell: 14:11

People can play. It's a difficult one, the music business, isn't it? Because, depending on where we're going, the traveling that's associated with it, so you've got to have really supportive parents or somebody who's prepared to sort of run your band. You're going into venues where you're legally, you know, can't buy alcohol. Everybody's drinking smoke, doing whatever they do. Thank you, okay, thanks, bye. Bye, there are. We have a music school in Manchester, cheathams, and you know it's full of that level. Yeah, it's dangerous. There's a lot of casualties because they try to get in the business too soon without the life skills, the people skills. That is more important than actually being able to play, because the last thing you think about as a musician isn't. It is about whether you can play or you can play. We can all play, otherwise we won't be here. But what are you like as a person? Now, if a young player has got to be nursed and babysat and if there's somebody prepared to do it, then great. I mean, I suppose, on reflection, if Geoff Riley hadn't taken me into those nightclubs, then my journey might have been very different. So the answer is as soon as you can, providing there's no adverse sort of things happening to you.

Dave Hassell: 15:51

Mark Taylor, a great British drummer who's not long. He was in New York from 1995 and he came back a couple of years ago in mid COVID and he worked with all sorts of people you know, oris Silver and various, various people. Mark was playing at Ronnie Scots when he was 10, sitting in when he was 10 years old and I suppose there are players. If you see somebody who's like whoa, this wonderful potential, then mature players, responsible players, they do help them and they do protect them as well. Once a young player say reaches that it's getting on in their teens later on, then they're going to become whoever they're going to become and if they want to go down a different route, that's a different thing. But when they're very young, yeah, you've got to protect them. So I would say, as soon as possible, as long as you're playing with people. Very fantastic to see some young kids play. I love it.

Andy Heise: 17:09

So as a performer, as an author, as a session player, those sorts of things, I would imagine you've got sort of a lot of different things that are maybe providing you some royalties.

Dave Hassell: 17:22

Yeah, A lot of my work, studio work. When it was really busy it was television, so there are royalties from TV more than royalties. I've never really been writing a lot, so that the composition side of it is not a real big part of what I've done. There's royalties on the books. Books, yeah, but that's only on the first two books because I retained the exon for copyright and everything else published. For the other ones there's stuff that comes in off records. You know that I've worked on, which takes into another area as well, because one of the bands that we used to do was fun in the 70s with a band called Both Hands Free, which is a fantastic band, great musicians I'm the only surviving member. It was a full piece and it was only like three or four years ago we found out one of the tracks had been sampled. Oh, wow, oh, Not, not a sample shot. We're on about the whole thing. Now it's been sampled by 27 different artists, Young Thug being one of them. Well, to take them to court can't afford it.

Andy Heise: 18:56

Yeah.

Dave Hassell: 18:57

Can't do it. So that is a side of a business that didn't exist when I was coming through Sure. Well, these days, and it really worried me about some of the institutions where they encourage the students to be sampling all this stuff without permission. I've no problem with if they get permissions and all that, but they're just taking stuff so they think it's free. At the point of you know, pressing the button, everything's free, which I think is a very dangerous thing for the music business For sure. So yeah, there's some royalties, but yeah, I won't be sailing around the world on it.

Nick Petrella: 19:45

So I can personally attest that you're a fantastic teacher and since teaching is a revenue stream for most musicians, what would you tell others who want to become effective and motivational teachers?

Dave Hassell: 20:01

Make sure you really understand what it is that you're trying to teach. We're in the music business. It might be old fashioned, but there's some institutions now where people go to college. They acquire skills and they go back in college teaching, which okay, that's all right, but the best ones you need practical playing experience. The analogy I use is simple If I was a, say, a boxer, and I've been trained by a boxer who had never been in the ring, who had also been trained by a boxer who had not been in the ring, who had also and they can go back three generations then they don't really know what it's like to be hit. We can have all the theories, we can have all the books, we can have all the diagrams now on YouTube and Instagrams and arrows pointing to this, that and that, but there's no substitute, as a musician, to sit amongst other players playing music. So I'm not saying that all teachers have to be great players, but they have to. They need to be in some sort of ensembles and have that experience as well as coupling it with the teaching and teaching. We all know that. I know many great players are not very good teachers, so that is another. That's another skill. It's another skill set, isn't it?

Dave Hassell: 21:37

Which comes back to communication, which for me, it's all about who's sat in front of me on what they need and not what the people in the ivory towers are telling us, what we should be teaching them. I don't teach in a straight line, as you know that Right right, it's a little the process. We have a start point and a finishing point and it can look like a bowl of spaghetti, but as long as we reach the desired destination, that's great. If those places where they say, week one, we do this, week two, we do that, week three, we do that, yeah, I'm nervous about that, I'm not that. I'm not that.

Dave Hassell: 22:20

You know, it might work for some people. It doesn't work for me. It's about the person, personalization yeah, it really is so and pursue your own interests through teaching. You know little ideas that you have for yourself. If you get good students, you can actually work things out together and eventually you build up that communication between the two of you, where it's fantastic. So you're sharing the education. It's just that I'm lucky I'm being paid for it now, but in a few years time the role might be reversed. You'll be doing it as somebody else, but I'm not afraid to say to a student I don't really understand that. Or if I can't explain it to you properly, then you're quite at liberty to question me. I won't fall out if they question what I'm trying to do. It's as simple as that.

Andy Heise: 23:19

Yeah Well, Dave, we've reached the point of the interview where we ask all of our interviewees the same three questions, and the first question is some of this stuff we've kind of covered, but we'll see if we can kind of summarize it here. What advice would you give to others wanting to become an arts entrepreneur?

Dave Hassell: 23:37

Well, entrepreneur, yeah, it's a worth it.

Andy Heise: 23:42

We haven't really talked about it. It's a worth it.

Dave Hassell: 23:43

She's awful. I actually went to the dictionary.

Andy Heise: 23:46

Yeah, we haven't talked about that yet, have we no?

Dave Hassell: 23:50

You thought this was a different podcast, so I don't know, that's the same. I'm not going to check this out. I'm not an entrepreneur really Okay, all right. I really know I've put things together, I've brought musicians together, but I've never really thought of that as being an entrepreneur.

Nick Petrella: 24:17

That's part of the band leading Even is the first step to recovery.

Dave Hassell: 24:25

It is, isn't it?

Andy Heise: 24:29

So far, you're ticking all the boxes.

Nick Petrella: 24:32

Keep going.

Dave Hassell: 24:37

Yeah, it's a hard one, isn't it?

Andy Heise: 24:41

For me it's. If I could answer for you be good at what you do and be a good person. Communicate. Learn how to communicate.

Dave Hassell: 24:53

Oh, yeah, if you're an entrepreneur. Well, if we're thinking about entrepreneur, the person who brings people together Now, we've all met the entrepreneurs. Unfortunately, there is something that's associated with certain types of entrepreneurs, isn't it? Absolutely? Should we say agents and things like that, who perhaps have questionable motives? Yeah, putting things together, but in the perfect world, yeah, yeah, it's the whole thing. You've got to be honest. If I was say, putting something together and going to a venue and just say, look, I don't know whether this is going to be pre-p people in, so I don't want you to really pay me a thousand pounds for me to try this out, we'll do a door split. But let's be fair on it, is that being an entrepreneur? Yeah, oh, right, okay, yeah, yeah.

Nick Petrella: 25:50

You've got to hang out with us more.

Andy Heise: 25:55

Well, I think the term entrepreneur, especially amongst artists, I think it often has that profit motive first. I think that's the connotation or the sort of maybe mythology around what is an entrepreneur. Anyways, we obviously don't prescribe to that definition of, but certainly the reason we asked you here today is because we certainly think you fall into that category, whether you identify as it or not.

Nick Petrella: 26:24

Yeah, yeah.

Andy Heise: 26:25

And it doesn't really matter.

Nick Petrella: 26:26

You didn't stumble through this for 60 years.

Dave Hassell: 26:31

I've got lucky a few times.

Andy Heise: 26:37

Lucky people put themselves in position to be lucky.

Nick Petrella: 26:40

Yeah, what can we do to ensure the arts are more accessible and reaching the widest possible audience?

Dave Hassell: 26:47

Invince governments that they should help fund it. That's the major problem. You know, the whole thing about the success of any sort of society is built around the arts, isn't it? Oh, I always thought that, but it seems to be a disposable thing now, with certain political views, without getting political, and unfortunately, the people who are in that position, who can help what we do? They don't see it as top of the list, do they? I might be wrong in thinking this, but in this country, like music, education in the schools has gone down, the funding of it has gone down, and, yeah, you've got to get these other things together now, but we all know how learning music feeds into so many of the other things. Have been a really great person, you know. And so the question again how can it?

Nick Petrella: 27:59

Yeah, what can we do to ensure the arts are more accessible and reaching the widest possible audience?

Dave Hassell: 28:05

Be proactive, encourage in those people who are in positions to make you know things possible for us. That's all it is. But that again is all down to the economies of certain countries and all that sort of thing. But it's no good just sitting back and thinking, oh, it's not very good now is it? You've got to be proactive Now.

Dave Hassell: 28:33

That's a dilemma in itself, isn't it? Because if you're being a serious musician and you've got all these other priorities, then it's very difficult at certain stages of your life I'm not saying that you'd go through your whole life when you can actually be active doing that. I mean, I spent a little bit of time in the 80s and early 90s, very active in the Musicians' Union, you know, and being part of the Musicians' Union, that obviously has an impact on the arts councils. So that's the only way I can think it would be. I can't think of it any other way. And it's no good walking around the streets here with a placard and say support the arts, because people are just going to totally ignore you, aren't they? It has to be those. Write that letter. Write that letter, sort of be a nuisance at some point in your life.

Andy Heise: 29:30

Yeah, Lastly, what's the best artistic or entrepreneurial advice you've ever been given?

Dave Hassell: 29:42

Best advice. I remember I don't know whether I'm answering this quite right but there was a situation when I started playing and I was stepping up with a really good trio and there was a fantastic bass player who was called Bill Brown. He was doing all you know, he was an A-team player and I walked up to him at the interval, you know, going first, that went really well. I just said Bill. I said it's really a pleasure to sort of be working with you.

Dave Hassell: 30:15

He says is anything not right? And I'm not quite, you know, not quite with it, or something not quite with what's going on. He says would you tell me? And he just sort of silently looked at me and went. He says no. He says if you don't know, you shouldn't be here. So that's giving you a licence, really, to sort of think what you're doing is okay. So it's. I've always been encouraged to be in control of my own destiny and be truthful to myself as a player. I know when I've played really well and I know when it's been like, okay, you better get back in that room for a little bit. These certain things have gone a little bit sour, you know. And so be truthful to yourself, simply, is people skills.

Andy Heise: 31:18

Sure.

Dave Hassell: 31:19

No, music is a reflection of everyday life. So, Bill, that thing that Bill said spoke to me.

Nick Petrella: 31:26

Yeah, great. Well, dave, it was great to see you again. I mean, your passion just comes right through and I know our listeners will. They're going to be inspired by this interview.

Dave Hassell: 31:35

Well, I hope there's some use for it anyway.

Andy Heise: 31:41

Thanks a lot.

Dave Hassell: 31:41

It's absolutely fantastic. It's just lovely to be speaking and talking. You know about these things. It's a really wonderful thing. Thanks, thank you.

Announcer: 32:21

Thank you.