Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
#234: Pablo Urbina (Conductor) (pt. 1 of 2)
This week on the podcast is part one of our interview with Spanish conductor, Pablo Urbina. He’s the Principal Conductor of the London-based Orchestra Vitae, and was recently named 3rd prize winner of the Siemens Halle International Conductors Competition. Pablo has conducted orchestras throughout Europe and in Asia, and is equally passionate about symphonic and operatic genres. He is a strong advocate for outreach and education, and for Spanish and Hispanic repertoire. Since 2019, he has been an Ambassador of The Amber Trust UK, an organization supporting blind and partially-sighted children through music tuition. Make sure you visit his website to learn more about Pablo and his activities on and off the podium.
In this episode:
Pablo's love for music took a turning point when he encountered the French horn, an instrument that would kindle a life-long passion for music. We hear fascinating anecdotes about his supportive parents, and the influence of jazz in his musical journey. In an intriguing twist, Pablo sheds light on the role of vibration in music appreciation and his metamorphosis from a French horn player to a maestro conductor.
As we approach the end of our conversation, Pablo emphasizes the vital role of communication, the power of positive reinforcement, and the respect for musicians as key ingredients for a successful performance. Join us as Pablo shares his wisdom on how physical exercise, English speech lessons, and the importance of critical and strategic thinking have helped him navigate diverse engagements in different countries and foster artistic freedom. Whether you’re an aspiring musician or a music aficionado, this episode promises a riveting exploration of the intricacies of music conducting and the challenges and rewards that accompany it.
Show notes: https://www.artsentrepreneurshippodcast.com/episodes/234-pablo-urbina-conductor-pt-1-of-2
Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast. Making Art Work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts Andy Heiss and Nick Petrella.
Andy Heise:Hello Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners. My name is Andy Heise
Nick Petrella:Petrella. Spanish conductor Pablo Urbina joins us on the podcast. He's the principal conductor of the London-based orchestra Vite and was recently named third prize winner of the Siemens Halle International Conductors Competition. Pablo has conducted orchestras throughout Europe and in the US, asia and Africa. He is equally passionate about symphonic and operatic genres and is a strong advocate for outreach and education and for Spanish and Hispanic repertoire. His broad experiences include working as the Union President at the Royal College of Music in London and was the project manager for the music collection of film composer Michael Cayman. Since 2019, he has been an ambassador of the Amber Trust UK, an organization supporting blind and partially sighted children through music tuition. Make sure you visit Pablo's website to learn more about him and his activities on and off the podium. Pablo, it's great to have you on the podcast.
Pablo Urbina:Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here and thank you for the invitation.
Nick Petrella:Let's start by having you describe your journey as a young musician from the Basque country to being a conductor in London.
Pablo Urbina:Well, how could I describe that without staying here for the next two hours? Well, I was very fortunate. You know, from a very young age my parents are no musicians. Actually, my dad was in the military. He's about to retire this year, so I think he's looking forward to it after a long career of service. And my mother was a doctor, so not much of a musical background there. But my mother particularly. She really loves music, not just classical, any type of music.
Pablo Urbina:So when I was very young she realized that I was dancing around all the time, that whenever there was a tune or she was always with the radio in the background. So I'm sorry it happens to many people I would be dancing around and moving. So actually what she thought that I liked was dancing. So she signed me up for ballet lessons when I was very young and I had a great time doing that for many years until when not only I was able to verbalize that I wanted to study music you know, pursue musical studies but also I started to get a bit bigger than probably was fitted for a ballerina, so I could no longer do all the physical activities that were required. And then it started to call it quits and I started studying at a music school very young, when I was seven and a half, almost eight, and we have a great system in Spain that allows you to start really young and start on different subjects, not just learning your instrument, but also do music appreciation or a skill, solfish, your instrument, instrumental, ensemble. So I was very lucky that from a very young age I did all these things and I think to this day it has probably served me very well because you know a lot of people now. They like it. You know one of those really silly party tricks that's on one place and not on the piano and you can turn around and I can actually go back to that note. And I don't think that I have perfect pitch. I truly do not. I just think that I studied from such a young age that my ears have become very well trained and I think that it is. For me it's always been an important lesson. You know, when I have kids in the future, I really want to start them very early, because I've seen the benefits of studying so early.
Pablo Urbina:On the downside, of course, it requires a lot of sacrifice. I spent many hours studying music, that I loved it and so I had no problem. But I can see how many people, especially in Spain, sadly, with such a huge, great education system that is virtually free, end up quitting very soon because they cannot cope with the normal studies in school, then going to separate school in the afternoon evening, sometimes for five, six hours in a day, after you've already done six hours of regular school. Anyways, I did that for many years and then when I was 17, in the most coincidental way, I Applied for a summer festival with the San Diego Youth Symphony. They had organized for the first time this Summer camp that was half of the orchestra of the San Diego Youth Symphony and half people from all over the world through, actually, with a sponsorship and support of the Rotary Club, which I know is quite big in the US. So extremely grateful to them to this day for that opportunity.
Pablo Urbina:And I applied and I didn't know if I was gonna get in or not. And I got accepted and I go there For what I thought was gonna be just a couple of weeks. And when I was there, the music director, jeff Edmunds, said Pablo, you know, we'll offer you to stay here for a year. And I said, well, what are we talking for? The following year or in a couple of years, and say no, no, in a month. You know, in a month we start just to start a school and I said, well, how is this gonna work? And I was 17 at the time.
Pablo Urbina:But I think that I just jumped at the opportunity. You know, I was but either very naive or very adventurous, or neither or both, I don't know. And I just thought, well, why not? If I don't do this now, I never and might never have an opportunity like this to actually go to a huge, I remember I mean it was, the orchestra had like a hundred and fifty musicians At least I had never seen anything like it and I had already been playing the French one, which was my main instruments, and so I've mentioned that, and I already played in youth orchestra, in the county orchestra and the state in the Basque region or orchestra at the time. But I just jumped at the opportunity and that kind of changed my life and it was. It was a wonderful, you know, one year in San Diego.
Pablo Urbina:Then from there I was sort of spotted and had the opportunity again to to try at the University of Southern California, los Angeles, at the Thornton School of Music, and the teacher at the time just said you know, we'd love for you to come here next year. And they gave me a very good scholarship. And Another thing that I suppose for me was always very important throughout All my studies was not to Just focus a hundred percent on music. So I think the fact that I went to university was a great shout for me. It worked very well because it allowed me to study other subjects. To study, you know, anything from physiology to self-defense, to German, to, I remember, classical mythology things that I've always I like going to school.
Pablo Urbina:I wasn't, you know, the person there is I easy, they're gonna be music or nothing. So I was very lucky that I could do all these things at the university and it worked well for me, just like I was very fortunate to To be able to go to a very good school for my last year of high school in San Diego and and to really hone a lot of the skills that I think Probably serve me to this day as a conductor. Or maybe it's because I kind of had in the back of my mind and sir would touch on shortly about it that I like conducting, that I might have subconsciously pursue these various different things that might seem a little bit random, like studying speech. You know, I took speech classes when I was 17, when I was learning, when I was Literally learning to speak English because that my English was, I suppose, okay. You know, like you can say your second language would be for most people, but not not enough to study. You know, to undertake formal studies in school and then when did you?
Nick Petrella:you were at the RCM after that, I would assume yes, and yeah, very true.
Pablo Urbina:Yeah, the last part of my career when I, when I finished in a USC, I Really wanted to come a little bit closer to Europe and I really I felt that it was important to at least aim for a place that was as good or better as the Thornton School of Music.
Pablo Urbina:So, and quite frankly, if I'm honest and now I'm regretting it because I'm Battling my way through German for the last two, two and a half years, even though I studied it at USC for a year as well I just didn't want to have to learn another language.
Pablo Urbina:You know, if you've had to go through that pain, or having to be abroad and and Learning a new language and learning to study in a new language as and you know what I'm gonna, I'm gonna go for the English speaking countries. So I applied to the Royal College of Music, on French one still, and then I was getting very lucky and fortunate to to be given a place with a scholarship there and, and that's by that point, I had already sort of Dance and toyed with the idea of conducting not too seriously, but I think it was already that you know, it's like you always know that that something is pushing you that direction. And then when I went to the, to the Royal College, that's when I really transitioned into conducting and, and then from there the rest is history. I suppose the the career, sort of a starting crafting itself.
Andy Heise:Yeah, you know I Going back to you know your early days starting to play music. I love that part in your biography where you you talk about you chose the French horn Because it was shiny and and it just made me think about like well, why does anybody choose any instrument you know because they like the sound of it or they know someone who who plays a place that Instrument or something like that. And so how did for you? How did playing the French horn unlock your passion for music? And you know it in an early age. It sort of opened up this whole career path for you, knowingly or unknowingly at the time. So how did, how did that work for you?
Pablo Urbina:That's a great question and I think it might have been any instrument that will have unlocked that passion for music. I think I always, when people say you know, what do you do, that the typical conversation, so what do you do? And I always say I'm a musician. And then they say what do you play? And I said actually my conductor. But I think that is important because I think one comes first and then the other one is just a means to express that Passion for music. So it might be that the passion was there and the reason why I chose the horn, besides for for being shiny like clay, you will point it out which, which is true, it is a true, true story I was supposed to play the bassoon because my brother played a bassoon and I think my mother, my mother, Suspected that my brother was not gonna stick it out much longer.
Pablo Urbina:And bassoon, says you know, are expensive. So I think she thought, well, you know, we'll put you in the bassoon. And then I Originally what I really wanted to play with the saxophone. It's just an instrument. And again, going back to growing up, my mother loves that sort of 50, 60s or early, you know, 30, 40s jazz and it was always around the house. So I think again was planted in my brain this love for the saxophone and then that's what I wanted to play. Unfortunately, it wasn't an option when, when I applied to music school that year, there wasn't the possibility. So I think maybe the next closest one that looked like a saxophone but even more funky, and it sounded beautiful.
Pablo Urbina:I remember the teachers at the time would play you every single instrument as you went around, which I thought was great, and they I Just something about the French one was absolutely Unbelievable, I must say. And then I said French horn. My mom said are you sure? And I said yeah, I'm pretty sure. So they had to buy me a French horn when I was like eight years old, not knowing how much, how many years am I pursuing for? I'm very, very thankful to them for saying yeah, no problem, it was always a, we'll find a way I'm going to go to America. Yeah, we'll find a way I'm going to do always very supportive that way. Even though my dad doesn't really understand what I do to this day, I think he's been, maybe I think literally he's watched me conduct four times in my life, but they're there.
Nick Petrella:Did your mother push the hand me down bassoon on you or no?
Pablo Urbina:No, actually what I my, my, my, my payback way, I suppose. When I was a little bit older about 14, 15, I finally found a way through. You know, a friend of my teacher, my French horn teacher, I kind of found a way to sell that bassoon. So I was like you know, I made you invest on this one, but I'm going to, I'm going to give it a nice cent off and I and I finally know that I remember when I was around 14, I had to buy a new French horn and it was quite expensive at the time. This is 2002 and it was the equivalent now to maybe $8,000, which in 2002 was a lot more than $8,000 now, which is still a lot of money.
Pablo Urbina:And I remember telling my parents you know, I really think I want to to do this for for my career, I'm really committed. Are you sure? You know? You're 14, you might change your mind and you seem to like everything else, you're good at school. So, yeah, I really I think this is for me. And my dad just said, okay, we'll buy it, but if you quit you eat it. So to this day I have not sold that instrument and even though I stopped, I think now is. I wouldn't want to sell it because it's just. You know, it's my precious French horn that it will stay with me, not just loan it to students so they can use it Sure.
Nick Petrella:I think it's fun that this is the second interview in two days right where somebody picked an instrument because it was shiny Really.
Pablo Urbina:What was the other one? Probably not one of the string instruments.
Andy Heise:We just talked with Dave Hassel, percussionist the streamer. He was 16 years old yeah, 15 or 16 years old walking down the street and there was a drum set in the window, in a red shiny drum set. He had never played in an instrument, never, never been a musician in his life, but these red shiny drum sets. And he had some money in his pocket, so he said I'm gonna buy a drum set.
Nick Petrella:And I joked around. I said, well, it's funny, had you walked by a euphonium, you had to play that first and you just did that with a French horn.
Pablo Urbina:Yeah, I'm glad it wasn't a tuba. I'm really glad it wasn't a tuba.
Andy Heise:So, like I said, Well, yeah right, your story about you know you used to go into your parents. I identify your story about your parents resonates with me as my parents neither of them are musicians very much sort of you know working class folks and don't you know. I said I wanna go to college and play the bass, upright bass. So it's similar sort of like that investment in that thing. And they just, okay, we'll do it, we'll figure out a way to make it happen. It's important. Again, without fully understanding what and I didn't, I don't think I even really understood what I was doing at the time, but I love your. What you said about, well, that's just your. You have the desire, the interest in music. The instrument is just the tool that you use to explore that passion, right, and then then you become a musician.
Andy Heise:It's not that you're a French horn, French horn player, right.
Pablo Urbina:And I think you know, going back to your original point I it might have been that the French horn was very, almost a perfect match, because you have beautiful lyrical moments when you're playing especially you play French horn that really allow you to just you know, you have to I always say you know, as a conductor, absolutely.
Pablo Urbina:I think it's literally the best seat in the house where the podium of the conductor is. But I do miss very much being inside the horn section. You know, when you are doing a Mahler Symphony, and just the sheer vibration. We forget that music is vibration at the end of the day, and when you're there, that is just. It's an experience like, I don't think, many in the world, and maybe that's what really continued to put that bug of love for music in me for quite a young age. And then, of course, being at the very back where you can observe everything and you have loads of moments of which you have to count, a lot of rest, maybe not as many as the trumpets or as many as the rest of the brass section or percussion per se, as you well know, but it gave me the opportunity to sit back and literally see everything and see people interact, and maybe that is why I was so fascinated by conducting alongside my French horn development.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, sure you know it's funny when you're saying about the best seat in the house and you're playing the French horn. I was chuckling because every time you're playing percussion and you're playing something loud, you'd always get the French horn looking asking for the sound shield.
Pablo Urbina:Yes, I said this, you guys keep it down. Yes, okay, you're blessed.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, exactly. So. You're still in the early stages of your conducting career and you probably remember many concerns that you had when you began. What were those and how did you deal with them?
Pablo Urbina:If I told you that I still don't have those concerns, I would be lying to you and my wife would call me a liar in public. So I think some of this it depends on the personality. You know, I again and I was finally not having this conversation today with my mother, of all things, because I'm here visiting her and I was saying you know, I'm just fascinated because you know all these different things, the communication and the management and everything really fit so perfectly with the conducting. And I almost wonder sometimes what would have happened if I had just gone into all those things, cause I was actually that type of, you know, I think I graduated from USC with a 3.95.
Pablo Urbina:Like I like academics, I like studying. I'm not someone that is like, well, just get me out of any essay reading. And maybe that's what conducting fits me so well, because it requires all the outer extroverted part that you have to be outside talking to people communicating. You know, it's absolutely love. But then once in a while you just come back to yourself and spend hours literally looking at 20 pages of music and I absolutely have no problem with that. And she was saying well, why didn't you just stop doing that, you know and I said well, because I just love music so much but at the same time, it comes with a huge amount of uncertainty that I don't think never goes away, because even, I would imagine, even when you have, when you have a full-time position in an orchestra and you know that that's gonna be there for the next Five years let's say you're not on a big contract or a big tenure position there's always this lingering idea that anything can change, and that is, of course, a scary, especially someone like for someone like me, which likes a certain amount of stability. I'm not like the people that are so I'd be fine, I'll be fine, something will come up, and it always does. It really always does. But that uncertainty never goes away. I suppose the the way that you, that I've learned to cope with it, is To find enough Things that keep me motivated and enough Leadership, or, supposing that, things that come out of my own will and desire, that if ever, ever came to a moment in which I have nothing on the diary for five, six months which not what is not the case yet I Will have things to keep me entertained. And if I don't have anything to keep me busy or engaged with. Maybe I just need to rest and that's also okay, because resting sometimes is important and also to study.
Pablo Urbina:And you know, I was the other day, I was, I had a little bit of time, so I was, I I'm just gonna watch and, you know, do a bit of research on the ring cycle, and my wife then he asked me why are you doing that? I said, well, why not? You know, I've always, you know you hear all these things and I've been watching recently the rings of power and you know people draw all sorts of Similarities between one of the others. I was researching a little bit about also talking and be like, okay, what's a why? You know, did actually talking Establish some kind of relay? This is this sort of gossip and sort of a speculation, or actually is there any connection? If so, how that influences the literature and how the music is portrayed through. So there's always, you know, you can go, just like you go sometimes on rabbit holes of YouTube or or social media. You can also do the same with with this type of research, and I think that that, for me, keeps me sane, also knowing that I have a support system that would allow me to To always sort of, yeah, to always be in the worst-case scenario, you know.
Pablo Urbina:So one gave me a very silly but truthful advice at some point and said if you worry so much, you know what you ought to do. This one's, when I put a problem, a situation arises just Tell yourself the worst-case scenario, you know. And I was like what did you mean? How is that gonna be useful? It's like, well, once that you tell yourself the worst-case scenario, you can only start building from that point. And as long and unless that the worst-case scenario is death, in which case your panic might kick in, then everything else can be manageable.
Pablo Urbina:And it truly, it truly and actually did the trick for me with this sort of Uncertainty of the profession. Because I just said, you know what I? I have a college degree and I have a master's. I'm very privileged to have higher education than many people don't have. I have arms, I have legs, I can, you know, undertake physical activity if need be. I can do a lot of things. So I don't think I, in the worst-case scenario, I'm not gonna be left homeless. I have a very loving support supporting family. I'm also have a happen to have a very thriving you know wife that is having a wonderful career and he's always you know, we've been very good at a sort of supporting each other along the way, so that that gives me the sanity, but of course it's. It's always a scary, because it's not. That it's a scary Is that you really want to spend all the time you want Doing the thing that you love the most after my wife and ambiguity is one of the traits that you know.
Nick Petrella:The acceptance of ambiguity, right, andy. Yeah, entrepreneurs have that. You know he's gonna be able to do that a high tolerance of ambiguity, yeah which I do not possess, but I'm working on.
Andy Heise:Yeah, it strikes me that it's difficult for a conductor to practice conducting, because it's not, it's not as easy as just gathering, you know, eighty hundred people together and hey. So let me try out some new things on my conducting techniques here. So how, how does a conductor hone their craft in the artistry that goes into it?
Pablo Urbina:Great question again, and I think there are so many different aspects about the world of conducting that Can really bring so much into what you have to say as a musician and as a conductor. I'm funny enough I would say that perhaps the actual physical Conducting the ensemble, which of course is the most important one, is it's where you get to make that when the magic happens. It's, it's a fundamental part of it, but there are so many others that I think also almost Make up. I would say a bigger chunk of the preparation is the pipe behind the scenes that you don't get to see and all of those things you you truly can get better at by yourself, by reading, by doing research, and the beginning is about that. For example, to give you a quick practical example, I think that we forget how important the way that we communicate with the orchestra is, because it can mean the difference between saying something very that is very meaningful and very musical, and we don't really know how to say it, and then that very interesting idea gets completely overlooked by the musicians because we were not able to deliver the message to them. So I think that for us to work in our communication is very important and that, luckily for us, we can do either by ourselves practicing Again.
Pablo Urbina:Going back, I think I was so lucky that I took speech lessons in English when I was 17 years old and at the time I mean, I dreaded them day in, day out because there I had to be put in front of 40 people when I could barely say that what I wanted to eat, let alone talk about philosophy or the great you know necessities of our society in 2005, when I was studying that. But now I look back at it and I say and I think, wow, that was really useful, because now I can actually go through that process by which my brain identifies what I want to say, whilst it's kind of communicating it to my mouth in such a way that I can deliver it, but not too fast, not too slow, just in the right amount of pace so that the orchestra really understands it or enunciating. You know, when I started my career, I was very nervous all the time. I'm very G3 and I'm Spanish and I can talk very fast, so I would be like and then, of course, percussion, as we said. You know, they'll be like sorry Maestro, we can't hear, sorry Maestro. And then I had to learn to really speak up and speak slower. Now that doesn't really require me to be in front of 80 people to practice. All I have to do is just to be or even you know nonverbal communication psychology to be able to praise. I always.
Pablo Urbina:I always now that I do some teaching now, both for conducting also music analysis and composition and various things to do with music theory in general, I worked really hard at always praising the good things before I go into the bad, because I've realized after all these years that I've been trained or programmed or I've trained myself to spot mistakes and do that very quickly, because time is money and we have limited amount of rehearsals and we want to get to the highest possible level.
Pablo Urbina:So I'm basically listening to something and all I'm spotting is mistake, mistake, mistake, mistake, mistake, which makes my listening experience in live concerts utterly miserable, because I actually want to just sit and just switch the brain and be like this is beautiful and, to be fair, I think I can do that if I need to or when I want to luckily for me now. But it's very important that when I tell this, my students say but that was actually really good. Or to say I really appreciate that you took on board my comments from last week and or to be able to transmit that to the orchestra and say thank you so much. Thank you for trying that thing that we discussed 20 minutes ago, because it makes such a beautiful difference not to me, not to you to the music, which will make, in turn, a huge impact for our audience. So thank you so much.
Nick Petrella:And you're bringing them along with you, so you're doing it together when you approach it that way Exactly.
Pablo Urbina:So yeah, there was. It is very frustrating that of course you want to spend all the time conducting the orchestra and that is so rewarding, and of course there are technical things that you can practice. And we do practice because we forget as well and as musicians we forget as well that we are quite in a physical profession. We spend a lot of time with our buddies and we have to respect them, nurture them and almost treat them like a little temple. So exercise is important as well.
Nick Petrella:This kind of segues into the next question, because this podcast, part of the goal is to help young people or people entering you know profession, one of the arts entrepreneurs. So what are the challenges you have when navigating engagements in different countries? We already spoke about some language barriers. I mean the agreements. What type of challenges do you have to navigate?
Pablo Urbina:Each engagement tends to be different and I think that you have to treat each opportunity or each time that you are working with an orchestra, whether it's the first time or the second time, to think very critically and I always say that the words you know critically, critically, strategically. I know that there are words that sound nothing musical and artistic, but I do believe that it's important in order for us to be free and truly be as artistic as we can. I do believe that we have to think about those first, so that then we can just forget about it. So I like to think very critically about each engagement that I'm working on, whether it's a youth orchestra first time, debut engagement with an orchestra second time. If I can, I like to know what's come before, who came before me, what type of repertoire they did, what was the type of music that they had done, so that I can then navigate my options of what I want to do with them or how to work. And I think that's maybe the difference between each engagement. But then there are certain commonalities I always like to be the same person, I'm the same, the same guy in there, and then I'm trying to make music with them, and I think that that is universal and that's the beauty of music is that it truly is universal and we cannot communicate whether we don't speak the same language or whether we, even if we have different views.
Pablo Urbina:I think people tend to go. People will go alongside your vision, or I will go alongside someone else's vision musically, if I believe that they really have passion for what they're trying to bring forth and that for me, I think it's also a universal thing with the other careers and I suppose that, on a very practical matter, if it's of any use to anybody, I like to really create routines, a few specific routines that make me feel at home, no matter where I am. So if I have the option you know I'm not picky, so I'm not I don't say on my agreements I say I must have a pool and a gym, but if I can, you know, if they say any preference, anything that we can accommodate, I say well, if it doesn't really incur in much in any more expenditure that what you had allocated or you have in mind for the accommodation, my accommodation, I would really love if there is some kind of facility, no matter how tiny, where I can exercise, especially if you go to a really cold place, which going outside for jokes which I like to do, at least you know, two, three times a week, is really not the most appealing thing, like in London when it's just so cold. And then I try to always eat similar things, which it might seem like very stupid, silly things to talk in a podcast, but they do give me that routine Because everyone says, oh, how lucky you get to the buffet every morning.
Pablo Urbina:I was like, well, if I ate my English breakfast every morning when I'm working, I will be a balloon by now. So I just try to have the same yogurt and a little bit of fruit. And then, when I'm away, one thing that I always carry well, I carry a few things always with me, one of which is a little analogue clock, because I'm paranoid that my alarm is not going to go off and that I will miss a rehearsal. So I have this little clock and this clock makes us, you know, as you enter. You know because in our generation we had analogue clocks before we had phones and digital. It makes the cluck, cluck, cluck, yeah, the ticking Very subtle and it actually helps me to sleep very well because it's a constant, no matter where I am Now. My wife absolutely hates it when it goes straight into the, into the cupboard and to the drawer as soon as I arrive, because she just cannot sleep with that type of sound.
Nick Petrella:But for me it's great, I'll start singing rhythms to it. I can't have a clock at it. And your point about the the budget it's the same. Yeah, yeah, you know the point about the food is been I used to travel a lot and getting sick if you're eating something that's not washed right or if there's something, how it's handled. So you really have to be cognizant of that.
Pablo Urbina:Yeah, it's a little little things that really make me have a sense of, yeah, a sense of coping mechanisms, I suppose.
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