#235: Pablo Urbina (Conductor) (pt. 2 of 2)

This week on the podcast is part two of our interview with Spanish conductor, Pablo Urbina. He’s the Principal Conductor of the London-based Orchestra Vitae, and was recently named 3rd prize winner of the Siemens Halle International Conductors Competition.  Pablo has conducted orchestras throughout Europe and in Asia, and is equally passionate about symphonic and operatic genres. He is a strong advocate for outreach and education, and for Spanish and Hispanic repertoire. Since 2019, he has been an Ambassador of The Amber Trust UK, an organization supporting blind and partially-sighted children through music tuition. Make sure you visit his website to learn more about Pablo and his activities on and off the podium.

In this episode:
Let your understanding of classical music deepen as Pablo takes us through his creative process, drawing on his experiences working with the music collection of film composer Michael Kamen and his passion for Spanish and Hispanic repertoire. Pablo demystifies the world of classical music and explains how he makes it more accessible and relevant to contemporary audiences. He also gives us a peek into his approach to collaboration with various orchestras and institutions, revealing the complex network that supports this timeless genre.

Pablo doesn't stop at discussing his love for music; he also shares invaluable advice for those aspiring to venture into arts entrepreneurship. He underscores the importance of persistence in the face of adversity and the joy of proving your supporters right. Pablo also shares his innovative ideas for expanding the audience of classical music, like outdoor performances and open-invitation events. Join us for this episode, and come away with a renewed appreciation for classical music and some priceless nuggets of wisdom for anyone thinking of a career in the arts.

Transcript

Announcer: 1:00

Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast. Making Art Work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.

Andy Heise: 1:42

Hello Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners. My name is Andy Heise

Nick Petrella: 1:46

Petrella. Spanish conductor Pablo Urbina joins us on the podcast. He's the principal conductor of the London-based Orcisha Vite and was recently named third prize winner of the Siemens Halle International Conductors Competition. Pablo has conducted orchestras throughout Europe and in the US, asia and Africa. He is equally passionate about symphonic and operatic genres and is a strong advocate for outreach and education and for Spanish and Hispanic repertoire. His broad experiences include working as the union president at the Royal College of Music in London and was the project manager for the music collection of film composer Michael Cayman. Since 2019, he has been an ambassador of the Amber Trust UK, an organization supporting blind and partially sighted children through music tuition. Make sure you visit Pablo's website to learn more about him and his activities on and off the podium. Pablo, it's great to have you on the podcast.

Pablo Urbina: 2:42

Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here and thank you for the invitation.

Andy Heise: 2:48

And a lot of this kind of maybe blends into. The next question that I have for you is about your work in mindfulness and musicians' mental and physical health. Can you talk a little bit about what are the conversations that you have with either students or the types of workshops or lectures that you give on those types of topics?

Pablo Urbina: 3:07

Of course, absolutely, and thank you for asking that question because it's one of the things that I'm most passionate about, you know holistically, I think, and I know we'll talk about it in a moment. I really have a strong view of what our job as musicians is in the society that we live in and why we do need to exist. Why is it so fundamental that classical music exists but at the same time, we have to make that visible to the rest of the society and to showcase the benefits of music. And my passion for physical and mental well-being and health comes from a very personal experience. When I was through my undergrad studies, I had a musician's injury so I had to take a whole year out and it really put my life inside out after so many years, as we've discussed, basically from seven, always French, one, french one, french one, french one, french one and then I did not almost play for a year and that was very difficult for me, but it taught me, you know why might have happened, how to make sure it never happens again and again, because we don't see the profession of as musicians and artists and performers as something that is physically challenging, even though we can stand as a percussionist, you may stand there for two and a half hours, just sort of standing, which requires a certain amount of physical endurance, whereas a bass player, if it's a string bass, you have to carry a pretty hefty instrument alongside sometimes a cross-town for gigs and you need to have the conditioning for that. So I think it's really important for me to I've tried to really bring that point to young musicians and to tell them that it can happen, that it's not a random theory that people talk about. Actually, here's someone that has had to take a year out and go.

Pablo Urbina: 4:58

At the time when I was in you know this was 2008, 2009. There were not that many specialized clinics that really understood what was going on. It was only two in the world. I was very lucky that one of them was in Spain and the other one in Chicago and so I had to go there across you know where I was living, had to go regularly, which was also a huge financial convenient for my family at the time and that was really important. So I tried to also lead by example and tried to be as healthy to undertake my job, but to make the point to them.

Pablo Urbina: 5:30

That is important and the mental health one. It's well, from the musician's point of view, extremely important because we have, like we just discussed, such a hectic life, sometimes a hectic schedule, and it's so easy to sort of giving into the manners of the profession. You know it's like oh, you're always gigging at night, you're having concerts at night, and then the nice thing I'm the first one that wants this after a concert, nothing I like more than a really cool beer and I really love it, but maybe that's you know, one, not systematically after every rehearsal, after it, because then it becomes another healthiest routine and that ends up affecting our mental state. And I'm not saying, you know, I'm obviously putting into the streams, but it does happen and it happened to me. You know, I burned down a few years ago, right before lockdown, and I had to take some time off and I just I wasn't in my straightest moments and I had myself for a pretty logical, rational I have myself for a logical, rational person that I never, ever thought this will happen to me, that my head would just give in and it will give out, really, and so I tried to really, and because it's happened to me and I'm not ashamed, I don't think there's anything that anybody has to be ashamed of saying is I didn't choose it, it just happens and it happens to everyone out of various, you know, unforeseen circumstances. I talk about it and I tell people. You know that they can be not shy to talk about it, it can be open and I try to give them contests about things that they might be able to do to prevent and to help them, and then to the general public.

Pablo Urbina: 7:03

I believe that music has such a classical music, such a huge amounts of healing possibilities and there is a reason why there are certain cores that, over and over, will really make us and I've studied a lot, you know the actual science and as a home player, and you know we get, we get indoctrinated very early on on the this whole thing about the harmonic series. So I know all about it and how it works and how different frequencies interact and how there are certain frequencies that we, as energetic bodies, we are, at the end of the day, vibrating, even if we are presented in solid form. We are indeed vibrating forces. This is no woohoo talk, this is physics, actually in science. So we are tuned very easily to certain harmonies and this is why, in the most, in the most simplistic way, without opening a whole Pandora box here. But there is a reason why certain tonal harmonies do tend to be pleasant to the vast, vast majority of people and why dissonances tend to be unpleasant.

Pablo Urbina: 8:05

And I'm not saying that we cannot present music that is not just pure tonality and beautiful to every, every day audience. That's because there are other components and philosophical and aesthetics that go into music, but in simplest form. I do believe, and I've seen how certain certain types of music classical music being one of them actually has humongous benefits to affecting our state, physical and mental. And that's what I try to put in my most humble way, that's what I really try when I have a chance to talk about and give talks, even if it's in. I've given talks in community churches and just, you know, with the groups of people. It doesn't matter, you know, if one person gets to realize of the huge benefits of it, then I'm very happy, my happy bunny, my job is done.

Nick Petrella: 8:56

Unless you have a lengthy contract with an ensemble or hold a teaching position. I imagine that income fluctuates when you're starting out as a conductor. That said, how do you budget for business and living expenses now and when you first started out?

Pablo Urbina: 9:15

Fantastic, very relevant question. Well, when I started out, I was very determined that both times and you mentioned both in the introduction when I started out, I wanted to make sure that whatever I needed to do to enable my dream was not going to get in the way of my dream. In other words, whatever jobs I undertook, I was going to be able to continue to pursue my career. So when I was deciding to transition, I needed a job. Well, I thought I needed a job that, on the one hand, would give me a lot of learning opportunities because that's also important. Take things that are relevant, if possible. So something relevant to my career and my vision and my desire dream and, at the same time, that would allow me to do what I wanted to do and this is what I run for a student president. So then I learned great and vast amounts of knowledge about governance at the highest level. I had to at some point meet with the current now King Charles, because he was a patron of the Royal College of Music and still is the patron of the Royal College of Music. So learning anything from etiquettes and how to navigate very important matches. I remember when I was the president there we were discussing and approved the whole renovation of the inside of the whole Royal College of Music, which was a huge undertaking with humongous amounts of fundraising required. So I learned a lot about those things, whilst having a job that was flexible enough that even though it was a lot of work I mean I think the minute, the weight, the hourly rate for that job was, it's probably less than a pound in the amount of hours that you spend but I learned so much that it was worth it. But it also allowed me to continue to transition into conducting.

Pablo Urbina: 10:57

Now, when I finished my studies, the same applied. I wanted a job that was relevant and also flexible. So for the last year of my studies I developed a very close relationship with the family of composer Michael Cayman because I became very interested through an orchestra that I founded, the students film orchestra, the Royal College of Music, which is what I co-founded with my now wife at the time, geryffin, and it just this relationship sort of developed and developed and developed. And then, when I was finishing my studies, it was the widow of Michael Cayman, sandra Cayman, who I dearly adored to this day and I will forever be eternally grateful to said well, you really seem to love this job, what you consider. I would be very happy to continue to employ you, for you to oversee the collection and do the simplest, the simpler archival matches, while it's also trying to further the music and open it up to orchestras and et cetera, et cetera.

Pablo Urbina: 11:55

So that was, I mean, the biggest blessing that I could have had, because whenever I needed to go and this is the important part that I'm extremely grateful when I had an engagement, sandra would just say have a wonderful time, we'll see you in three weeks, have a wonderful time, you know. And I never really dropped the ball. I think it was a trust in both ends that I was going to be never suddenly saying okay, bye-bye, and I'm just so grateful for that opportunity which is, you know, it was a relationship that was formed between me and the family and the state, so it was a sort of I was just very lucky that I was able to make of something that I did voluntarily out of my love for Michael Cayman's music, which I think is phenomenal and should be performed far more. It turned into a position and it allowed me to do that. So nowadays I try to always, you know, I, like I said, I have a little bit of teaching positions. That I do firstly because I love teaching, also because I think that that gives me a little bit of that stability point that I know that at no point I'm going to go to zero for months on end. And also, I mean in the simplest possible way, I believe in the.

Pablo Urbina: 13:01

You know, don't buy unnecessarily unless that you have to. If your trousers look good, I don't need five, I just need just one. You know I don't. I don't particularly love brands and I have very little. You know I like once in a while if I come across, you know, and I know, by no player, I'm a bit of a sucker for antiques. So if I see something that is not too expensive I might just be like, okay, that's my birthday present. But I tend to keep you pretty, pretty manageable. I think that's then obviously, when you do better jobs and you get better paid, I tend to find out that I don't need to spend so much. You know I don't spend it. Also it kind of goes into my little bond of grains for hibernation.

Andy Heise: 13:44

So, as we've been discussing, you're deeply rooted in the classical music world. On your website, you say you feel a responsibility to demystify the classical music world. What does that mean to you and why do you feel a responsibility to do that?

Pablo Urbina: 14:00

It means it's a, it's a mouthful, it's a long, long word, but I mean all I mean by by that is very simple. I do not like when someone asks me what I do on a plane. It happened, excuse me. It happened two days ago when I was flying home and I said what do you do? And I'm a classical musician. And then the person next to me, go whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo. You know, if the audience could, if the listeners could see, you know, it's kind of like this stuck up, almost position, and I was like right, what does that mean? Now, why do you think it was a boy? You know, because of the, the tales and blah, blah, blah.

Pablo Urbina: 14:35

And I don't mean by saying demystify, I mean to make it and to put the word to, to sell what is not classical music. It is. It's a form of art, is a form of traditional art that we have a responsibility to preserve. Just like people pay money, or if the museums are free, like in England, lucky that to go for free, but people get to pay money to go, and I think we have to respect them. It was learners lacking. The brilliant American conductor that that told, you know, told us once in a masterclass, that he didn't believe that, that we had to almost present classical music as what it is not Now. So I think that there is a space for I. What we go wrong is that I think that we think that classical music is just that, you know that, that that huge part of the you know that museum of art, when actually classical music is in every day, we hear it constantly, we hear it on the radio, we hear it on pop music, everything is stems and we just we miss the trick to realize that it's just a pure evolution. And once we have to respect and preserve almost that legacy, that vast legacy of music that we have, we also have to be working towards making it relevant to our society nowadays. And that's what I think that if we can tell people that is not this huge thing up here, that is normal music, that actually makes people really.

Pablo Urbina: 15:57

I am to this day encounter someone that I've introduced to classical music and introduced, and you know, to take them to a concert and not not to be patronizing or to tell them you know you are going to listen, which I think is it has a place, but again, we should not always be patronizing people. People are smart enough to make their own mind. Nobody has said just, this is not. You know, give me my Rihanna and my R&B and then forget about I just don't want this. Nobody comes to that. They might say actually, you know, this is great I might prefer to listen to, just like I love listening to co-plays. Sometimes I prefer co-play than I do maller, and some other times I prefer to listen to maller than anything else.

Pablo Urbina: 16:33

So it's again, if we we take this aura, this huge ooze around classical music, and we just see as another fundamental part, then we might be able to bring people closer to it, because there is not this huge barrier and also, if we understand the countless amounts of things that we can do through classical music to make our society better. And I'm not saying by that, you know, presenting classical music, and because, because, again, people make the assumption that we think that by as presenting classical music to the society, the society is going to be better, no, actually, by presenting some of the traits that stem from classical music teamwork, leadership, companionship, breast, sometimes just to take a moment to sit down and listen. You know how often do we do that? This is just to sit down for 20 minutes and listen, listen. With no other agenda, with our phones tucked away in silence.

Pablo Urbina: 17:35

We hardly do that anymore and through that we can actually teach wonderful things to society. That might make it better, we might give purpose to children that do not have the opportunity to be put in an environment of nurturing and of growth. That's what we can do through classical music and through sports. I never know one to say I think sports are fundamentally important as well, but I think that if we make music more a normal commodity almost, you know, not an luxury, but a commodity then it loses. You know, nobody think that milk is a precious thing. I'm sure that if we train people that milk is this precious thing, eventually milk will turn into a precious thing, which is not. It's an everyday thing that makes us our bones stronger and happier.

Nick Petrella: 18:22

Yeah, you've conducted orchestras in at least 10 countries that I counted. Do you approach all in the same way when you were rehearsing, or do you account for any cultural differences, and how so, if you do?

Pablo Urbina: 18:37

Yes. The short answer is yes, there are many, and I could be very short because yeah, but the thing is there are very different systems by which orchestras work. So, for example, in England you often have two days, you know, if you're lucky. Two days, two rehearsals and a concert. Now you can approach the rehearsal the same way that you would do in Spain, when I know that I'm starting on a Monday for a Friday concert or for a Thursday concert.

Pablo Urbina: 19:06

Because the learning curve for the orchestra not just for the orchestra, but how they get used to you as a conductor, how you communicate, you know, how you can sort of get into know each other is much more progressive and it takes place over a few days. So if I go to that first rehearsal and I start just yanking, you know, and squeezing, and squeezing, and pushing, and pushing, they might really react because they're not used to it. So I have to be aware of the system by which they work, because that will make them more. You know, if I understand it, on the first rehearsal they are going to be reading the music, they will have practice. Of course they're professionals, but they will sort of get into grips with this repertoire, especially if it's new, get into grips with me, and they know that by day two, if there is any flaws that they have to address individually, it will not be their own day.

Pablo Urbina: 19:52

Now, in England, if I took the same approach, I would not make it to the concert, so that would be a risk to take. And then I have to start a little bit quicker, and if I go to Portugal, it sort of is a similar entity. Now I do think that I tried. There are a few things that I tried to do, the same everywhere, and one is to be respectful to the music and to the musicians. That is universal. The other thing that I tried to do is to be friendly and to really show my love for music, and then everything else for me is just, you know, semantics, so to speak.

Andy Heise: 20:29

Yeah, Do you have any jokes that you use everywhere you go?

Pablo Urbina: 20:32

Well, I mean yes, I must say, having an accent.

Andy Heise: 20:36

You don't want to give them away, though.

Pablo Urbina: 20:37

No, no no, of course. No, but it's not jokes. But having an accent comes in very handy. You know it's a and you know and I'll tell them. If they don't understand, I'll tell them anecdotically. I'll tell them something that I know is just going to crack them up. Like, for example, I used to play in a woodwind quintet and for about two years with a lot of English speaking native speakers, and for two years nobody told me that. Actually, you say herpins know herpes. So there, I was always talking in rehearsal about herpes. You know we need to do more herpes, more herpes, and nobody ever corrected me because their inside joke was that that was so funny that I was just saying that. So you know, you tell that to an orchestra is guaranteed that they're going to suddenly lighten up and if you needed to use that, you know, if you feel like the mood is really dropping or they're a bit tired, then you just use that and automatically bring them back. Yeah, that's great.

Andy Heise: 21:27

Was there a single musical event in your life that you can point to and say that's? That's when I knew I wanted to do music.

Pablo Urbina: 21:35

Yes, actually, and funny enough, it happened in this very living room in which I am right now and in my hometown, in my, in my mother's place, because I remember vividly I was listening to. The configuration of this living room was different. It was the more, more sort of adolescent proof, you know, with big couches for us to put around. Now he's very pretty, full of flowers, and I remember it was around the time which the Lord of the Rings came out and again I was like I'm very, not shy to tell that I absolutely love film music and that I would, I really like doing it and I don't want to not do it ever again, if that means, you know, all I'm going to do, doing is pure classical, so to speak. And it was the two towers, so the second one had come out.

Pablo Urbina: 22:21

Some months have been, we're talking now 2002, 2003. And I remember just sitting with the CD player blasting this theme of Rohin, you know, and just playing it on the horn, and I that feeling at some, I was like I just need to do this, you know, I just don't see myself doing anything else. And that was probably the first time that I had that feeling and it was around 13, 14, like I said when I had to buy the horn that my dad threatened me to eat. Yeah, that's cool.

Nick Petrella: 22:53

Do you commission new music and, if so, where do you find funding?

Pablo Urbina: 22:58

Thank you for asking that. I've been very well trained through the last 11, 12 years by my wife, who is a composer, as you know, to to really champion it. I think I will have done it no matter what, but I think I'm very grateful that she really is so passionate about it and I try, if I can, to commission. I certainly. If I don't have the funding, I will definitely try to bring new music that is already been created but not performed, or people. I always make a database of every single person that contacts me because I never know how you know where it might fit, and I'm always very open. I think we mustn't create false illusion to people, just like I will have no likely for myself If someone you know I've had that said I would love to work with this orchestra, when I was, you know, seven years ago and someone said oh, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, we'll keep you in mind. I never called. That will have broken my heart more. So I was very open and said listen, right now I have limited amounts of possibilities because I only have one ensemble by which I have specific possibilities to program on my artistic through my artistic vision, and then the other orchestras if the possibility comes in and it fits very well, it will happen, and sometimes that happens in a few months or years, oh, but it eventually happens.

Pablo Urbina: 24:11

You know, someone contacted me in I think it was last March, so over a year ago and now that I'm planning a concert in September with Orco Shavite, I brought this back and it's actually I think this is a perfect opportunity to make this, you know, to bring this music. So we're now gonna make it happen and I'm very happy that I can do that. If I have funding, sometimes I try to apply to funding, like you know, health Musicians UK or the Royal von William Trust. They are very keen to support the performances of music. And then, of course, ideally, I think, when I have more budget on an orchestra that has the possibility to commission new music, I will make sure to allocate part of the budget, because I think it's fundamentally important. Again, just like it's important to preserve the legacy of the past, it's important to preserve the legacy of the future.

Andy Heise: 25:01

Sure, Pablo. We've reached the point in the interview where we ask all of our interviewees the same three questions, and the first question is what advice would you give to someone wanting to become an arts entrepreneur?

Pablo Urbina: 25:15

I have two that I couldn't really choose between, and they're very simple. One is meet resistance with persistence, because there is always gonna be, there is always gonna be. Not everything is easy and pretty, and it really is, and but if you really have that passion, you really keep at it and things will. Might take a different shift to where you thought it was gonna be, that straight path, or it might come take around or take a bit longer to get there, but I really, if you meet that resistance with persistence, I do believe that eventually it sort of happens.

Pablo Urbina: 25:47

And then I would say the other one that for me is really important is to prove, to prove the people that support you right, not the ones that didn't wrong, which is what we tend to do, sadly, myself included. To this day I have, for various reasons, I do not have a few people here, nobody's a profiting in some town and this some home, as they say, as the proverb says. So when I come home, my first instinct sometimes is to to be like oh, I remember that person that didn't really support me when I was here and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I was like no, actually there was so, so, so, so, so that really supported me along the way. So put them right that they were right to support you and say thank you.

Nick Petrella: 26:23

What can we do to ensure the arts are more accessible and reaching the widest possible audience?

Pablo Urbina: 26:29

Well with again. We touched on this, I suppose, quite a bit earlier. I think there has to be. We have to be able to show the place of classical music within the wider context, because we cannot be asking a huge society to support something that they do not understand and they did not see the purpose for. So the best thing that we can do for our industry is precisely finding those, those things that we can do that everyone can benefit from, to bring it out to them.

Pablo Urbina: 27:02

You know, I would say, if Muhammad doesn't go to the mountain, to go to Muhammad. You know, maybe we have to do more concerts outdoors. If we are in a beautiful place that allows for it, we have to bring in different genres, not to be shy or not to be ashamed, to make classical music really a reachable, tangible thing that everyone can really touch. And that means, you know, and if it means I, just I invite people to sit alongside you, you know, to be there with you. To have children, I don't care, you know, if it's a concert, I understand you don't wanna disrupt the music because people are also there to enjoy. But if it's a dress rehearsal, I really don't care if I have 100 children screaming their guts out around the outside area. It does not bother me, because that is so important to them to be exposed to music as early as possible. So anything that we can do to ensure that is beneficial.

Andy Heise: 27:51

Yeah, lastly, what's the best artistic or entrepreneurial advice you've ever been given?

Pablo Urbina: 28:00

Again, couldn't choose one, but they're very simple. One is stay in your lane. Stay in your lane, it's really important and you know, and it's always because you do see. You know when those lanes in the track and field it start to turn, you never know who is ahead because you know the shortest one looks like. But then just stay in your lane. You know, a bit like with your blinkers, and believe in your. Have a passion, have a vision. And the other one, I suppose, is, you know, vision without action and strategy is just pure dreaming. So it's great to have a vision, but then we have to be able to implement it. And I suppose, and the third one, really be kind. Being kind is free.

Nick Petrella: 28:42

Yeah, that's a great way to end. This has been a lot of fun, pablo, you're a very empathetic musician and certainly gave us a lot to think about.

Pablo Urbina: 28:51

No, thank you so much for having me. It's been wonderful. Thank you for giving the platform to so many people to talk about this, thanks.