Today we release part 2 of our interview with Bobby Sanabria. He’s a noted drummer, percussionist, composer, arranger, conductor, producer, educator, documentary film maker, and bandleader. He’s a 7-time Grammy nominee who has performed with dozens of renowned artists such as Dizzy Gillespie, Tito Puente, Mongo Santamaria, Bob Mintzer, and Randy Brecker. If you’re at all interested in Latin Percussion over the past 75 years, or what it takes to be a productive arts entrepreneur, you’ll want to join us!
In this episode:
We weave through Bobby's personal journey from escaping gang culture in New York City to spreading his love for Latin music in college. We then travel through the fascinating connection of Afro-Cuban and Latin jazz. As we stroll through the vibrant stories of the Machito Orchestra and Duke Ellington, Bobby reveals his belief that rhythm is the pulse of music – if you appreciate the rhythm, you embrace the music. As we navigate through the endless possibilities in the musical multiverse, we delve into the modern musicians' world who masterfully blend various musical styles and create unique rhythms, demonstrating the beauty of diversity in music.
Finally, we take a cinematic turn as Bobby illuminates his experience with the film West Side Story, reflecting on the critical role of historical accuracy in movies. We discuss the art of entrepreneurship in the music industry, pondering how to make the arts more accessible. Drawing inspiration from the legendary jazz musician Buddy Rich, we delve into the passion and dedication required in the pursuit of music. As we wrap up our musical journey, Bobby leaves us with an inspiring note - the importance of perseverance and the power of never giving up. Prepare to be moved by this rhythmically rich and heartwarming conversation with Bobby Sanabria!
Today we release part 2 of our interview with Bobby Sanabria. He’s a noted drummer, percussionist, composer, arranger, conductor, producer, educator, documentary film maker, and bandleader. He’s a 7-time Grammy nominee who has performed with dozens of renowned artists such as Dizzy Gillespie, Tito Puente, Mongo Santamaria, Bob Mintzer, and Randy Brecker. If you’re at all interested in Latin Percussion over the past 75 years, or what it takes to be a productive arts entrepreneur, you’ll want to join us!
In this episode:
We weave through Bobby's personal journey from escaping gang culture in New York City to spreading his love for Latin music in college. We then travel through the fascinating connection of Afro-Cuban and Latin jazz. As we stroll through the vibrant stories of the Machito Orchestra and Duke Ellington, Bobby reveals his belief that rhythm is the pulse of music – if you appreciate the rhythm, you embrace the music. As we navigate through the endless possibilities in the musical multiverse, we delve into the modern musicians' world who masterfully blend various musical styles and create unique rhythms, demonstrating the beauty of diversity in music.
Finally, we take a cinematic turn as Bobby illuminates his experience with the film West Side Story, reflecting on the critical role of historical accuracy in movies. We discuss the art of entrepreneurship in the music industry, pondering how to make the arts more accessible. Drawing inspiration from the legendary jazz musician Buddy Rich, we delve into the passion and dedication required in the pursuit of music. As we wrap up our musical journey, Bobby leaves us with an inspiring note - the importance of perseverance and the power of never giving up. Prepare to be moved by this rhythmically rich and heartwarming conversation with Bobby Sanabria!
Hi everyone, Nick Petrella here. This episode is sponsored by Steve Weiss Music, percussion specialist since 1961. If you're looking for a rare piece of sheet music, a specialty gong or anything percussion, steve Weiss Music will have it. Please visit SteveWeissMusiccom or click their link in the show notes. That's S-T-E-V-E-W-E-I-S-S Music. com. Our percussion series sponsor.
Announcer:Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast. Making art work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent or reference to any product or service is not an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.
Andy Heise:Hi Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners. My name is Andy Heise.
Nick Petrella:And I'm Nick Petrella. My longtime friend, Bobby Sanabria, is on the podcast today. He's a noted drummer, percussionist, composer, arranger, conductor, producer, educator, documentary filmmaker and band leader. He's a seven-time Grammy nominee who has performed with dozens of renowned artists such as Dizzy Gillespie, tito Puente, mongo Santa Maria, bob Mincer and Randy Brecker. We won't be able to cite all of Bobby's accomplishments here, so we'll have a link to his website in the show notes and include links to all of the people in place, as we'll mention in the podcast.
Bobby Sanabria:It's a pleasure to be here, nick, and nice to meet Andy as well. Nice to meet you too, bobby. Hello everybody.
Nick Petrella:So, Bobby, you're an excellent communicator and I've watched you engage people of all backgrounds. Does that come naturally to you, or is it something you've had to work on?
Bobby Sanabria:I think if you're growing up in New York City, you learn how to bullsh**t right away, because you get in situations sometimes where you've got to bullsh**t your way out of them, whether it's a couple of guys rolling up on you that want to mug you or beat you up because you're in a certain neighborhood that you shouldn't be in and what are you doing around here? You know that kind of a thing and you have to talk your way out of it. Or the beginning of that, I think, was when I got that scholarship to that school from when I went to from the sixth to the eighth grade, because I had to take the subway every day from the South Bronx into Manhattan to go to 83rd Street between Amsterdam and Broadway, to the school and that meant I was all alone and that was the worst time period in New York City. It was like they called it the Savage City at that time. You want to read a good book?
Bobby Sanabria:Tj English, my great friend, new York Times bestselling author. He has a book out called Savage City and it talks about that time period. It's an incredibly-. Yeah, we'll link to it. Yeah, and he also has written a book. His latest book is called Dangerous Rhythms, jazz in the Underworld, the History of Jazz and Organized Crime. So you should check that out as well. But it was a gradual thing and I was very shy when I was young. But music is what gave me confidence, the drumming, et cetera, et cetera. Growing up where I grew up, if you could do something well, you stood out. And even if you were like what we called in the old days, an herb corny, you know whatever say you wore glasses, like I did at the time, or whatever, they'd give you a pass because, oh man, they go sonar. You know, man, you ever heard of play drums or team ballads or congas or what? Yeah, he's cool man, that kind of a thing.
Nick Petrella:Yeah.
Bobby Sanabria:That helped me escape from the gang culture as well. You got to understand at 14 years old. I'm walking around with a set of team ballads, walking from my projects to the subway, which is like four blocks away, four long blocks or five blocks getting on the subway to go to do salsa gigs, and I'm doing that in the wintertime too, with the snow. In those days they did not cancel gigs, no matter what. Why? Because of the subway. Now they cancel things for whatever reason, but I was doing all of that and people would see me walking around in the street. They'd see me playing Cuban Rumba in the park on congas, always with albums under my arm. So that gave me confidence little by little. And then, I think a Rubicon was. When I was in Berkeley, people started knocking on my dorm room door. At that time I don't know how it is now Everybody decorated their door with cut out pictures of their heroes. You walk by somebody's door and they have a picture of John Coltrane, charlie Parker, lou Donaldson, and they oh, he must be a saxophone player. So me, I decorated with all my heroes Tito Puente, billy Cobham, Santana, et cetera, et cetera. My first roommate was Dave. He was a trumpet player. So he put pictures of Maynard Ferguson, things like that. We'd cut them out. And it's funny, all that training that you got in kindergarten, man, in arts and crafts, it came in handy. So people started knocking on my door who's this dude here with the Tim Ballas and what is that? The only reference point any of my fellow students had for any Latin music back then was Aeto Moreira from the Brazilian side and Santana from the Afro-Cuban side, tito Puente. Nobody knew who Tito Puente was. It was hilarious.
Bobby Sanabria:And when I'm from New York so I go, everybody's got to know who Tito Puente is. Man, eddie Palmieri, I couldn't believe it. I remember having lunch with Charlie Palmieri, eddie's older brother, who was an incredible virtuoso. Yes, he goes, be kid. As I said he goes. I said I don't know who you are, they don't know your brother, they don't know Tito Puente, they don't know Machito. He goes. Listen, kid, once you drive up I-95 and get outside of New York and you pass New Haven, connecticut, people start going Tito who? And he was right.
Bobby Sanabria:So it was a shock to me, but that was the beginning of me being a communicator, because people were not going to do hey, you, the guy with the Latin records. Can I borrow some? And I go. No, but you can come in and I'll play some for you and I would try to explain what was happening in my own primitive way.
Bobby Sanabria:Gary Chafee, the head of the percussion department at the time, same thing. He goes to me hey, a lot of people have been talking about you and this, that and the other, because I was getting a reputation from playing with Michael Gibbs and all that. So can you bring me some records? He didn't know who any of those people were that I gave him records of and he goes to me hey, this is really cool. You know, this is cool stuff. I don't know what's going on, but it's really cool stuff from a drumming standpoint. So that was me, the beginning of me being a teacher, and teaching is just, is an expression of love, because you're sharing and the good teachers you know when you got a good teacher, when your lessons over and they still keep teaching.
Bobby Sanabria:Yeah and it's like Five minutes after the lesson it will hold on a second now check this out, you know and then it's ten minutes, it's a half an hour. So I have that problem a lot, but I'm getting better at it. So so that's, that was the beginning of that. And then being a band leader, having to talk to the audience, etc. I learned that From working with these great band leaders on wedding gigs who came from a time period when they caught the tail end of vaudeville and they also were very confident on stage and they had a talk to the audience and make jokes and things like that. So so all that I absorbed and I use it to my benefit today. My problem is like now I Can't stop talking, man, you know it's like a disease, but it's alright. It's alright, you interrupt me anytime you want.
Andy Heise:No, it's, it's all good and it's, it's fascinating. You're, you're sort of a Encyclopedic knowledge and references and connections and all of those things. I mean that's that seems to be sort of core to who you are and what you share with people.
Bobby Sanabria:Well, part of it is because, as I said before people in Boston on the faculty, there was only one faculty member that knew who Tito Puente was in Machito. That was Keith. You know why? Because his father, ray Copeland, was one of the great lead trumpet players in the 1950s and 60s. He played with Ellington Basie and he played with Tito Puente and Machito and he recorded with them. So, and Keith was from New York. Yeah, so how could you not know them, unless you're in a box and you know Hiding in a cave or something.
Bobby Sanabria:But, excuse me, my thing was that, well, it's a couple of things. One I was astounded that nobody knew who these great figures in American music were. Sure, you could say Tito Puente is a great Latin musician, but he was a jazz musician. He was driven by jazz, everything from his arranging style, the way he played, the imbalance, everything. He played piano to clarinet, alto sax, vibes and marimba, as you know, nick. So he was a jazz musician through and through. So he should be part of the pedagogy of jazz history. Yet he's not included in that.
Bobby Sanabria:And if you don't believe me, check out the 18 hour Ken Burns documentary. There was nothing about our people and our contribution to jazz. If you're gonna talk about the complete history of jazz, you got to talk about the complete history of jazz, and that means the people that I just mentioned. So that irked me. To know, avail to know, excuse me, to know, and and still irks me. And I've been on a mission to educate people about the connections. All you got to do is connect the dots.
Bobby Sanabria:I Love being a jazz musician, but there's one negative aspect about being in that world and has always hindered that world is that the people in the jazz world tend to be snobs. Musical stops, and it happens in the class classical, orchestral world. I hate that word, cat. Classical, everything's classical, man. I Like to use the word orchestral, symphonic. You know which is what it is. So that happens too. But you're having, you have a new generation of young players. I've met violinists that they know the repertoire inside out, but then they're listening to Jay-Z and their headphones. So that's a good thing, yeah, and you're gonna see conductors more and more like that coming up, yeah. So it's a good time period to be in, despite the travails of the music industry now, sure.
Andy Heise:What's your approach to leading? So you've got you know. Anytime you're bringing a group of people together, how do you get them to buy into your vision? Because you said that's an important thing, that they, that they do. How do you, how do you portray that vision? How do you get them to come along?
Bobby Sanabria:Well, the first thing, the most important thing, is what Duke Ellington used to say, which is they asked him how? To that same question he goes well, I pay them something called money and that opens up the door. Second, the music. The music is Fascinating, it's interesting, it showcases them in Every aspect. If they're not in, if they're not being featured as an improviser, they really have to Pay attention to what's going on and use the technical skills that they they they've gotten over the years to interpret it correctly. And my vision is I Call it the multiverse, which is there's no musical boundaries. So, if you're into Latin music no, and I'm not just talking Afro-Cuban and Brazilian music, but all forms of Latin music You're gonna experience in a certain way With the music that we do. If you're into jazz as an improviser, forget about it. The whole, every two pieces. You have to use your skills as a jazz improvisers if, if you're featured in it and one of camaraderie, and that's why the band, my multiverse big band, is multi-generational, multi-ethnic, multiracial, and All I care about is like what Machito and Tito point they used to say in Tito Rodriguez oh, they used to say things like man, I don't care if you're from Mars. As long as you can play, you can be in this band.
Bobby Sanabria:Do you know the Machito Orchestra, which are the founders of the Afro-Cuban jazz movement? They did that in 1939 in New York City, the first band to combine jazz ranging technique with Afro-Cuban rhythms. At one time they have four women trumpet players in the band. In the 70s I didn't know that. I remember that Alan ceiling got into the band, then Mario Grillo, machito's son, the team by the place today. You know, when somebody this guy can't make it next week, can you get a sub. So what does she do? She got a fellow woman and then they just happened and For a couple of nights they had four women in the band. And I remember because I was watching them. The Machito Orchestra is the most important orchestra in the history of jazz besides Duke Ellington.
Bobby Sanabria:They, they, they and they in Inadvertently were part of the civil rights movement. Because what band at that time, when they formed in 1939, had the word afro in them? In the United States? So for African Americans it was like whoa, and then for Latinos in New York they had to Conten with the fact that, well, our rhythms, that's where they come from. It doesn't matter how light-skinned. You are your phenotype. You got a deal, you know. If you like.
Bobby Sanabria:If you like the music, then you like it. Because of what? The rhythm, which is the most important aspect of music physical as pieces said, melody, harmony and rhythm. Of the three aspects of music, the most important one is rhythm. So if you like the rhythm, you're buying into the fact that the music, its roots are in Africa. So my thing is connecting all the dots and showing the relationships between Something that Nico McBrain might play on drums in a heavy metal context and showing you a you know what rhythm that he's playing is based off of this cowbell rhythm that comes from West Africa that we use in Cuban music.
Bobby Sanabria:You know that kind of. And then when they show people that they start scratching their heads, they're going damn. Nobody tells you these things because of the way we learn music or our tart music in this country. So there's a lot of what do you call it Remedial surgery we have to do in terms of the way there's. No, you know, I hate when people say things like oh man, he's just a classical player, yeah, but I heard he plays drums too. Nah, but he's, you know, he's a temp in this or whatever he you know. I said, well, why don't you let him, let him or her play? And then they all of a sudden, they play and they go. Damn, I didn't know, you know.
Nick Petrella:I go, we. You know people tend to think in silos. That's really a lot.
Bobby Sanabria:Right, right, right. And that's the problem with musicians. We have a date prejudices that we have. That we've learned over the years and we have to constantly fight that. And I've been fighting that all ever since I formed this band 25 years ago and any of my other bands that I lead my quartet, my sixth, my 10th, ted, and the 25, 24 piece multiverse big band, for example, we have now.
Bobby Sanabria:It used to be 21 pieces, it used to be 19,. Then I added an electric violin and a flute piccolo special that I had that people go. Why are you adding more people to the band? I said because I hear that in my head and I was a big fan of Don. Unless he had a string section, I can't hire a string quartet, quintet, but I can hire an electric violinist and with those pedals they can sound like a string section. And the flute and piccolo. I like the way Quincy Jones writes. He would always have the flute and piccolo on top and it gives me another orchestral color. So you can hear that in the West Side Story I reimagined the album that we did.
Bobby Sanabria:That was nominated for Grammy when the album of the year with the Jazz Journalist Association. But now I've added three singers, so now there's 24 people in the band. There's Janice Siegel from the Manhattan Transfer, antonette Montague, who sings with the Ellington Orchestra, and this incredible musical polyglot, jennifer J LaDesta, who's half Dominican, half Puerto Rican. She's from the Bronx, like me. She sings in four languages fluently and speaks eight languages. She's a freak like that, you know so, and you'll hear all that on the new album, voxumana, which we recorded live. There's no studio trickery or anything, it's live at Disney. It's just like we did West Side Story we imagined. So I'm very proud of the orchestra.
Nick Petrella:We'll link to that as well. You've had cameo appearances on TV and film over the years and, as a matter of fact, when we were setting up this interview, my wife and I were watching the Marvelous Miss Maisel on I think it's a Netflix or Amazon, I'm not sure and I just happened to look up and I hear counting off and it's you and that's when I text you. I said yeah, we gotta have him on the podcast.
Bobby Sanabria:Well, I hope I wasn't interrupting anything.
Nick Petrella:No, no, truth be told, I was half asleep, but you woke me up, so that's good. How did those cameo appearances? How did they come about, and have you, has that helped your career at all?
Bobby Sanabria:Yes, yes, the fact that you recognize me right away. I get texts every time on phone calls. It's all again, advice to the young players out there and the established veterans. It's all about the relationships that you make. Years ago I had the Mambo King soundtrack and one of the producers remembered me and 20 years later, or whatever, she calls me up I don't know if you remember me, but you know this and I don't remember you. But I remember the soundtrack when we did the soundtrack and she goes.
Bobby Sanabria:Well, I'm a producer on the Marble of the Smiths' Mayzell and that's one thing led to it and I'm always looking for opportunities to help my brethren. So they wanted a version of Mambo number five and I said can you pay for an arrangement and what would you need? I said 500 bucks for a transcription. So I called up one of my former students, jeremy Fletcher, who's written some things for our orchestra over the years, many of several things already over the years. He's great, jeremy. I got a geek for you, can you do a chart on Mambo number five in two days or a day? And I told him what it's for. He goes sure. So I gave him a template, the original recording. I just make it a little bit hippo, you know, and so I was able to help him, you know, in that sense, I'm always looking at him.
Nick Petrella:Were the other musicians in that shot. Was that your band? Yeah, yeah.
Bobby Sanabria:I tried to get all my musicians in there but they only said at first nine. Then I said you got to give me more. They said, all right, 10. I go no, no, come on. Finally it was like 12. So I had to pick certain leaves on people out, unfortunately so unfortunately, made the other people pissed off. But the main thing is that we did it and it's there for posterity, for history, and we represented the music well.
Andy Heise:And I'll tell you one thing, the count off.
Bobby Sanabria:Yeah, the only reason they get the close up of me doing the count off was because in the studio and this is where knowing history is important Porez Prado, who this shot was modeled after playing at the Copa in 1958 in New York City, he always counted on Uno, dos, like that. So I said to them they had a click, so they go four clicks and you're in, I go listen, listen, can you give me eight clicks? And I'll go Uno, dos, uno, dos, tres, cuatro. And they go, and they go. That's what Perez Peralo would do. Hey, yeah, that's, hey, that's a great idea and everything. So I'm being honest to me when I got there, when we all got there to the shot, to the shoot, they said hey, we're going to put the camera on your face and you'll be counting off, mimicking, yeah it filled up the whole screen.
Nick Petrella:I was like you know, I'm talking to my son, I hear your voice and I look over and I was like, oh my gosh.
Bobby Sanabria:Yeah, yeah, and it was, it was, it was, that was, and that's again just because of my knowledge of history, right, I actually said that in the studio. I said, listen, perez probably used to always do this, and because of that, yeah, so that white shot, they modeled the shot after I didn't suggest that they did it.
Andy Heise:It was a while. That's really cool. And so you've also consulted on several, several documentaries and composed scores for some as well. What is what was your role as a consultant on some of those documentaries that you worked on?
Bobby Sanabria:Simply the historical accuracy and because I'm articulate, they put me on screen. You know, and and in terms of the documentaries, people know that I'm not just a one dimensional musician. And they could, I could do these types of things and they've called me up. I'd like to do more of it. The last documentary I did in terms of the music was something close to me, this La Madrina, the savage life of Lorraine Padilla. She was the wife of this guy named Blackie who was the head of the most savage street gang in New York City, the savage skulls, during the time period I was growing up in. She's the same age as me, so when I'm looking at the film and everything, it was very personal to me. That was submitted to the uh was. It was the New York Film Festival, the Robert De Niro runs, the Tribeca Film Fester.
Nick Petrella:Tribeca yeah.
Bobby Sanabria:But unfortunately, because of COVID, all of that got canceled and everything. So I was hoping that. Oh well, people see this, they'll check me out as a composer and I'll get some more work for it. For it.
Nick Petrella:But, uh, yeah was it released eventually or?
Bobby Sanabria:it was it was.
Bobby Sanabria:Yeah, you can get it online, uh, and you can see certain clips of it on YouTube, cool. And the last thing I did big thing was being a consultant, along with Elena, my lady, uh, to West Side Story, which was very disappointing too because of COVID and all that. And you know, the big controversy about that film is the the Puerto Ricans on the island. They're opposed to it because, oh, it portrays us as gang members. And I said it's not a new, it's not an island Puerto Rican story, it's a New York Puerto Rican story. And we went through all of that. People asked me hey, is that true about the racism and all that in West Side Story? I go, it was worse, I could be here another two hours talking about that, but I'll leave it at that.
Bobby Sanabria:But it was great meeting I'm and I'm talking. I got to be talking to Spielberg, like I'm talking to you guys, but except he's right next to me. He invited me even to one of the shoots, and Tony Kushner as well. We were two for two hours in my car talking about a scene. So these people are geniuses. Making a movie is the hardest thing Anybody that's experienced on TV. That marvelous Mrs Mayvelle Mayzell shot. There were 200 extras or choreographed all in vintage clothing, vintage haircuts, everything down to the cigarettes they were carrying. That you really even see Well.
Nick Petrella:I found, yeah, I found myself looking at things like that and in the drums they're using and the instruments, and just I told them I am.
Bobby Sanabria:And that guy. For that we have Maxwell drums in New York City, which is now the name has changed. But they, they told me what, what drums should we get? I go, go to Maxwell drums and the con guys I go. You're not. There's nobody that makes the con guys like that anymore. There's a guy who was an apprentice for who? For Jay Barrick, a skin on skin, I believe, or some other guy that made hand drums.
Bobby Sanabria:Anyway, I told me the drums that you want to similar to they have to look like the Vergara drums or the Rechena drums from Cuba from that time period, because it's 1958. So I got them hooked up with a gentleman. I forgot his name. I'm so sorry that I forgetting his name now, but he makes Matthew Smith, matthew Smith and he, he, they called them. They were going to pay for the shipping of it. He said, no, I want to be there to see when they how they shoot. That's awesome. He came down and brought the drums. Those are the drums that you see there.
Bobby Sanabria:So they were very much into historical accuracy. That's cool. I'll tell you one thing. They played the music in our phones that we recorded with a click and they said play exactly like you played on the recording and and play, naturally as well. They had the sax players play, you know, actually play everybody. And the woman I forgot her name, she's a genius director. You can look her up. She was a stickler for historical accuracy. She goes to us every fingering that you did every I wanted, exactly like you know, because how many times have we seen as musicians?
Nick Petrella:Yeah.
Bobby Sanabria:Movies.
Nick Petrella:Well, you know, you guys did because you could see, you can tell when somebody's playing. But there was a couple of episodes later, might have been a few seasons. They had someone on there and they weren't playing. They were that, you know anyway.
Bobby Sanabria:Well they then. The assistant director maybe was the director that day, but for this shot she was a stickler and about that in the music she won, she won us over as the musicians, yeah.
Andy Heise:When she, when she said that Right.
Bobby Sanabria:And, and I remember they had a remote head on the snare drum. I said, man, you can't, and it's a plastic. Heads weren't invented yet. I don't think, so I go, so I tell the guy.
Nick Petrella:It was right around the time.
Bobby Sanabria:Yeah, I go, I tell them. And they sent a guy up with a little Tool kit and I remember he had attitude because he was pissed off. I guess that he had to do that. But anyway, he comes over and gets, get off the seat so he starts painting and he made the head look like a cap skin head.
Nick Petrella:Oh yeah, with some shame, he just wiped the logo. Yeah, they use a lot of Gretz drum sets in there.
Bobby Sanabria:And he goes, I go, man, you're good, he goes, I know.
Nick Petrella:So so, bobby, do you see your, you see yourself as a brand.
Bobby Sanabria:All of us are brands. All of us, all of us, yeah, all of us. And you're and here's a piece of advice that I learned from Justin the Chocho, the greatest jazz educator that has ever lived You're always auditioning. You're always auditioning. You might be at a party If you act like a fool or something, guess what. The person watching you two people over might be a producer or someone known artist that was maybe thinking about using you in this. And man, this guy's a jerk. I'm not going to call him or her. You're always auditioning. You never know who you're going to meet when you're going to get a phone call, that phone call from the marvelous Mrs Bezel, 20, 25 years later. Amazing, right, the woman remembered me, yeah, from the sessions, and, and there you go. Sometimes it kicks in years later. So you're always auditioning. Always remember that.
Andy Heise:A lot of your work has been with big bands or jazz orchestras, which are, you know, not as as we've been talking about not not very common these days. Why do you continue to have your, your big band, the multiverse big band?
Bobby Sanabria:Because it's the greatest expression that we have in terms of Jazz, for the players as a vehicle, and also for composition and arranging. That's where? Yeah, it's a simple answer.
Nick Petrella:That's sure, yeah. Yeah, we've had quite a few performers on the podcast over the years, but not that many band leaders. For those who want to start a large chamber group, say it's a big band or new music ensemble or whatever. What are the first few steps they should take to make their goals a reality?
Bobby Sanabria:The bestest piece I have advice I can give you is get your shit together. The only reason I can do this is because I studied composition and arranging. That was my minor at Berkeley. I Wanted to be a complete musician, like Maestro Tito Puente, like Louis Belson and other great drummers. That a composer arranges to Billy Cobb is another example. I Asked Randy Brecker one time when he was in Billy Cobb's band. I said the charts? Did he write all that stuff out? Oh yeah, he wrote it all out. He handed it out to us and he rehearsed it and we, you know, with us directing us what he wanted, etc. So that's the best piece of advice I can give you.
Bobby Sanabria:You have to be in Many ways like a symphonic conductor is the best musician on that stage and you have to be able to pinpoint things with accuracy and be able to speak To the musicians in a way that you draw what you need from them out. Sometimes that's getting on their case, sometimes that's taking a softer approach and sometimes it's actually showing them musically what they're doing wrong and how you want it done. I'll give you a quick example. I'm Maestro Tito Puente from Big Concert at the Apollo. He gets pissed off at the sax section. They're phrasing something wrong. He goes give me the freaking alto saxophone to Bobby Puccelli, the greatest lead alto player, one of the greatest big band lead alto players jazz, latin, anything and he starts playing the damn figure that he on the alto saxophone.
Nick Petrella:Wow, I didn't know he played, so I knew he played vibes and and piano.
Bobby Sanabria:I saw him play piano one time at a gig he used to. I played drums in his band for several years, drum set because he had so many commitments that he would do a gig. And then in those days in the 70s, the top a-list bands were doing three gigs in one night. They'd pack up at one gig, do a set, go to another, cross town, do another set, go across down to another set, and he couldn't do the drums.
Bobby Sanabria:Yeah, it was an amazing time period, of course, and first you let it to a lot of cats becoming cokeheads, unfortunately. Yeah, but that is at May. If Tito, on the last gig he had to get home because he had to prepare for a recording session the next day or whatever, he just wants to get home early. He played the first two tunes, or the first tune, and then tell his drummer, mike Goyaso, come up and play T-Ballas, I'm leaving. So he had fulfilled his part of the contract. He appeared. Nobody could say, hey, I came to see Tito Puente. Yeah, he was here, you just missed him. So that was my role in that band, this video of me playing with him at the Apollo and stuff. Look up Tito Puente Scholarship Fund, tito Puente, and you'll see me playing drums with the orchestra and I saw Mario Bazaar playing with him. He'd yell at the orchestra. Those guys you got to understand they're coming from World War II. Yeah, it's a different time. That's America's greatest generation. There was a rule with them Lead, follow or get the F out of the way, and we've lost that. You know.
Bobby Sanabria:I've heard tapes of Tito cursing out the band on sessions at RCA. Some guy asked him a question. So wait, let me get this straight. We go back to the sign and then take the second. I said that five times. What the F are you? Are you deaf? We got a. The session is ending in five minutes. You're asking me stupid questions Now. You wasted another 30 seconds. You know like he's like yelling at the cat, you know. So I come from that school. I've tempered that over the years.
Bobby Sanabria:But I remember Charlie Percival one time came up to me. We were talking and the great, great Charlie Percival, and I said man, how did dizzy get that band to play those hard, incredible hard bebop charts? He goes, man, the same way you do man. Sometimes you yell at the cats, man. You dizzy was brutal. I go buddy rich ain't nothing. You should have heard dizzy man with us.
Bobby Sanabria:And I hear those buddy rich tapes and people that don't know, because they don't know. This is battle, man, this is war, and these people come from America's greatest generation. You did the job, or next you replaced no ifs, sands or butts and there's no room for incompetence. So, and there's no time for incompetence. So when I hear buddy those tapes of buddy rich yelling at the band, I'm hearing a guy that's heartbroken because he has so much passion and respect for the music in his art form and he's. He's a guy that's twice as old as any of the musicians in the band and they're just phoning it in and not giving a sh, and he's heartbroken and he just can't take it anymore. That's what you, the perspective you have to listen. I get take it from when you listen to those tapes of buddy rich cursing at the band.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, like on the bus after I was either after or before he was yelling at him. I had so many years since I've heard those tapes. But it's affecting his brand, Just like what your band does is going to affect your brand.
Bobby Sanabria:Yeah, when he says I play with the greatest musicians in the world, how dare you not play for me? Right, yeah, that's the ultimate form of disrespect. I'm not playing for him. Such a great. They should be lucky that they asked them to be in the band. Yeah, and lucky. And you, when you talk to some of the cats that were in that band, 99% of them said they love buddy and they knew he where he was coming from. Right, yeah, sometimes he'd go overboard, but it was because you don't. You don't understand the, the hardships he went through to keep that band alive. He has to meet a payroll every week. He has to be able to keep the band playing interesting music so that they won't quit, and then also keep the band working so they won't quit the tour and keep it tight, right, etc. Yeah. And that he did that till the end of his life is a testimony to his greatness as a leader and as a player too. I mean, I've talked to a lot of the cats that played in that band, because some of them played with us in Mario Balzaz band and in Tito Puentas band.
Bobby Sanabria:And you know Bob Mincer. You know, bob Mincer. You mentioned Bob Mincer before and others Ross Connickoff, you know others and man, they would, they all tell me it was unbelievable watching him every night after they're on a long bus trip and he's just got this will that he will not let the audience down there for him. You know that, exactly what I said. It's like a father, you know, being disappointed in his children, his children. That's the way you got to take it down with all the PC things that we have today, etc. You know people would be crying and this and that, hey, listen, if you can't stand that, he get out of the kids. This is a job for men and for women.
Bobby Sanabria:Not for the faint of heart, and not for the faint of heart, and so especially if you're a jazz musician.
Andy Heise:Sure Well, Bobby, we've reached the point of the interview where we ask all of our interviewees the same three questions. A lot of these things we've kind of touched on throughout the interview, but this is sort of our wrap up here. What advice would you give to others wanting to become an art entrepreneur?
Bobby Sanabria:Get as much knowledge as you possibly can. Learn how to deal with human beings on a personal level, one to one. Learn how to listen to what we call in Spanish, which is gossip, and get to know the person on a one to one level and they'll reveal themselves to you and make those relationships count. As I said before, it's all about interpersonal reaction. The best example is the marvelous Mrs May's love story. Yeah sure.
Nick Petrella:What can we do to ensure the arts are more accessible and reaching the widest possible audience?
Bobby Sanabria:Well, when you meet a politician and they want your vote, ask them what are you going to do for the arts? And they're going to go. Well, we have other, more stress, stressing problems. I go. What could be more? The big, the biggest problem what do you mean? What are you talking about? The biggest problem is the kids. You said it don't have any of the arts, so they turn to crime. Push them on it. I've done that many times to politicians and all of a sudden, years later, I get a call.
Bobby Sanabria:Mr Sonabria I don't know if you know him from the office or whatever this so-and-so assemblyman. He'd like you to perform. He remembers the conversation you had and he'd like to pay it forward and he wants to hire you for your orchestra, for something. So be steadfast in your beliefs. Remember you're an artist. An artist inspires people. They teach people, they share with people.
Bobby Sanabria:Okay, I've always prided myself on being a working class musician. I can fit in any situation you call me for. If you want me to play triangle, just for one beat and weight 395 bars, you know, just to play triangle on the end of two in the 396 bar, I'll do it. I can do it. You know I'm a working class musician, but with that comes the responsibility. If you're a leader, as an artist, your vision, what you want to get across to the audience.
Bobby Sanabria:It's beyond me getting work as a band leader for my orchestra, the concerts we do, the club appearances, are just a means to an end which the end is to inspire the audience and me, sharing my culture with them and connecting all the dots and showing how we're more related. We have more things in common than differences and there's great examples of that, one of the biggest examples. I can give you two examples Don Ellis and Santana. If you haven't heard of any of those artists, check them out. They're living. Example Carlos is still alive, don Ellis isn't, but his music is out there on YouTube. You can check it out.
Andy Heise:Yeah, and lastly, what's the best artistic or entrepreneurial advice anyone's ever given you?
Bobby Sanabria:I worked with this symphonic conductor, jose Liso, who was Puerto Rican, and we were doing some chamber music and I was playing timpani, believe it or not, and he had heard about the things that I was doing and he, clandestinely, he came to see me at a concert and he came up to me and he goes "'Whatever you do, do not stop what you're doing. "'keep doing what you're doing. "'it's making a difference and we'll prove fruitful in the end. "'do not give up".
Bobby Sanabria:And I've had those moments we all have as musicians. Are man, what am I doing this for? Et cetera, et cetera. Everybody has those moments. But you know who has those moments more? The person sitting in the office doing a job that involves no creativity, no inspiration in terms of the arts. So we're lucky in what we do. So, as I said before, it's not for the faint of heart. Grow some. If you haven't grown them yet, grow some, because all this music, all this music, no matter what style it is, even in the orchestra world, has been born out of some type of human experience, and mostly pain, painful music experience. If you talk about all the romantic music that Liszt wrote and Haydnall, well, that's because those guys had broken hearts. How could they write something so beautiful? Because they were inspired. By that. Yeah.
Nick Petrella:Well, Bobby, this has been great. It's been a fun history lesson and hearing how music has just impacted you throughout your career. It's been a lot of fun.
Bobby Sanabria:Thanks again, andy and Nick, for the opportunity to share my thoughts. I'd like to let everybody know that I have an internationally broadcast radio show on the number one jazz station in the entire country, wbgo FM, coming out of Newark 88.3. And you can listen to it every Saturday from 4 to 6 pm Eastern time. It's called the Latin Jazz Cruise and you can listen to it on WBGOorg that's WBSMBobbyGOorg on any computer listening device et cetera. And if you missed the show you can go to the archives. Just type in your search window WBGO Latin Jazz Cruise C-R-U-I-S-C.
Andy Heise:Thanks, Bobby.
Announcer:Thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please subscribe. Visit artsentrepreneurshippodcastcom to learn more about our guest and how you can help support artists, the arts and this podcast.