This week on the podcast is part two of our interview with Susan Hazel Rich. She used her experiences as a former logo and brand designer to create Hazelmade, a collection of illustrated paper and home goods. Each design in her collections is hand drawn and paired with environmentally friendly papers, fabrics and earth-friendly packaging. We know you’ll enjoy hearing Susan’s open and honest conversation about what it took for her to succeed. We’ll have Susan’s website in the show notes so you can see her creative designs and functional pieces of art.
In this episode:
Susan takes us on an enlightening journey through the often overlooked administrative side of art entrepreneurship, including accounting, bookkeeping, and even sales tax. She stresses the importance of acknowledging one's limitations and delegating tasks accordingly. And if you've ever found the legal side of starting a business daunting, Susan discusses the invaluable help she received from business incubator programs like Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts.
Transitioning from Etsy to Shopify was a decision that came with its own set of challenges for Susan. She candidly shares her experience of rethinking the financial component, emphasizing the need to adapt to the ever-changing market. Moreover, Susan generously reveals her marketing strategies that have contributed to the growth of her business. From personalized handwritten thank you notes to holiday cards, she delves into the simple yet effective ways she has been reaching out to her shop owners.
Finally, we tackle the ever-pervasive challenge for entrepreneurs – time management. Susan gives us an honest look at how she dealt with this issue and the strategies she implemented to successfully pivot her business. One key takeaway is the significance of listening to feedback and using it as a stepping stone for growth. Susan's belief in the necessity of making arts accessible to a broader audience is truly inspiring. So, if you're an aspiring art entrepreneur, this episode with Susan Hazel Rich is a goldmine of insights waiting to be discovered.
This week on the podcast is part two of our interview with Susan Hazel Rich. She used her experiences as a former logo and brand designer to create Hazelmade, a collection of illustrated paper and home goods. Each design in her collections is hand drawn and paired with environmentally friendly papers, fabrics and earth-friendly packaging. We know you’ll enjoy hearing Susan’s open and honest conversation about what it took for her to succeed. We’ll have Susan’s website in the show notes so you can see her creative designs and functional pieces of art.
In this episode:
Susan takes us on an enlightening journey through the often overlooked administrative side of art entrepreneurship, including accounting, bookkeeping, and even sales tax. She stresses the importance of acknowledging one's limitations and delegating tasks accordingly. And if you've ever found the legal side of starting a business daunting, Susan discusses the invaluable help she received from business incubator programs like Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts.
Transitioning from Etsy to Shopify was a decision that came with its own set of challenges for Susan. She candidly shares her experience of rethinking the financial component, emphasizing the need to adapt to the ever-changing market. Moreover, Susan generously reveals her marketing strategies that have contributed to the growth of her business. From personalized handwritten thank you notes to holiday cards, she delves into the simple yet effective ways she has been reaching out to her shop owners.
Finally, we tackle the ever-pervasive challenge for entrepreneurs – time management. Susan gives us an honest look at how she dealt with this issue and the strategies she implemented to successfully pivot her business. One key takeaway is the significance of listening to feedback and using it as a stepping stone for growth. Susan's belief in the necessity of making arts accessible to a broader audience is truly inspiring. So, if you're an aspiring art entrepreneur, this episode with Susan Hazel Rich is a goldmine of insights waiting to be discovered.
Hello listeners, andy Heiss here with a quick message from one of our sponsors. Are you a student looking to sell your art? Look no further than artbystudents. com. Their platform is specifically designed to help students showcase and sell their work to a wider audience. With artbystudentscom, you can easily create a profile, upload your art and start selling in no time. Plus, their simple and secure payment system makes it easy for buyers to purchase your work. So check out artbystudents. com today to get started. That's artbystudents. com.
Announcer:Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast. Making art work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.
Andy Heise:Hi Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners. My name is Andy Heise and I'm Nick Petrella.
Nick Petrella:In this interview we're joined by Susan Hazel Rich. She used her experiences as a former logo and brand designer to create a collection of illustrated paper and home goods. Each design in her collections is hand-drawn and paired with environmentally friendly papers, fabrics and earth-friendly packaging. We'll have Susan's website and the show notes so you can see her creative designs and functional pieces of art. Thanks for being on the podcast, susan.
Susan Hazel Rich:Thank you so much for having me.
Andy Heise:So, talking about your team and all the things that need to get done in your business, how do you approach the administrative tasks for , things like accounting and bookkeeping and sales tax, etc. Do you do them or do you outsource them?
Susan Hazel Rich:It's a mix of both. So I really believe that you should hire out what you're not good at or comfortable with as soon as you're financially able. So in the early days not of , but of my other business, my design and branding business I kind of screwed up the tax thing and I realized really quickly that was something that I didn't want to mess up again, that I needed help with. So very early from that business and through , I've had an accountant that I've had do my end of year filing. But the day to day bookkeeping, quarterly sales tax, those payroll things like that I've had people help in the past. But that is something I do understand how to do and it does seem like even if I have someone hired for the position, I still have to sit down and have one-on-one time with them. So I just end up doing that myself and that seems to work pretty well.
Susan Hazel Rich:But one piece that I think is important is when I first started either business, I relied pretty heavily on these business incubator programs. They're often free, they're sometimes related to a university but you don't have to be a student to access them and they're these groups. I've had them in all the cities that I've lived in. So they're these groups of retired professionals lawyers, accountants, things like that and they'll help you for free figure out like what is an LLC and how should I file that, what's a business plan. I've even received some legal advice as far as copyrights and things like that, so that if you aren't in the place where you can afford to hire out, definitely looking into those business incubator programs was a huge help to me.
Nick Petrella:And that's actually good, Andy. I don't know that that's actually come up before in here, but that's a really good thing for listeners in the United States to visit the local universities. And what is it? Lawyers and accountants for the arts.
Andy Heise:Yeah, the volunteer lawyers for the arts. We have one in Kansas City, in Chicago's got one. Do you all have one? Cleveland has one.
Nick Petrella:Cleveland area. There's like 50 of them, I think. So I mean we can link to some of these in the show notes. But that's really good. Thank you for bringing that up.
Susan Hazel Rich:Of course yeah.
Andy Heise:Can I ask what mistake you made on your tax? You don't have to be specific, but generally. What was the oopsie on the taxes that made you say I'm gonna, I don't want to do this anymore?
Susan Hazel Rich:Oh yeah, I'm happy to share this information because it's something that is just. It's one of those things, you know, when people just say like, oh, everybody knows that. And it's like well, no, I don't know that.
Andy Heise:No, they don't. Everyone does not know this stuff.
Susan Hazel Rich:Yeah. So when I first started freelancing very, very early on, I did not understand that the money that you earn as a freelancer, as a self-employed individual, is not just money to go straight into your personal bank account. So the board that I learned is commingled and the funds that you earn professionally as a freelancer, as a 1099, as a small business, as an LLC, any of that money that you earn professionally has to go into a business account and then you write yourself a physical check that moves that money to pay yourself over to your personal bank account. When you just drop that money that you earn professionally into the personal account, the IRS then sees your entire personal account as taxable income.
Susan Hazel Rich:Now, I'm not a tax professional, so this is just my personal experience. I'm going to throw that out there, but that is what I learned really early on. And then the idea that you register an LLC is what you need to get that social security number for your business Essentially it's called an EIN number and that allows you to open that business account, bank account for that money to filter into. So just the really simple steps. They're very inexpensive, but I just didn't understand that those things need to be divided that way, and so anytime that I'm speaking or sharing anything, I love to just share that, because it's something that just you know your whole younger life like.
Susan Hazel Rich:Growing up, I worked restaurants and sure you just get this paycheck in, the taxes have come out, and so then you start getting these other checks and they feel the same and you just don't understand that it didn't come out and that you you need to pay those employment taxes as well at the end of the year.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, yeah, you were in Michigan, ohio. You were in Colorado. You could have been in Leavenworth, true.
Susan Hazel Rich:Okay.
Nick Petrella:Okay, so you sell the consumers online and, as you just said, you sell a bit in your production and design studio, but you also partner with over 500 stores worldwide. How do you find B2B customers?
Susan Hazel Rich:A lot of different ways. So I started in the early days, like 2014, of Hazelmade. I was handwriting notes, taking a printed physical catalog, a few simple samples, putting those into an envelope and actually mailing them off to stores. At that time I don't think that my work was where it needed to be, creatively, aesthetically, to compete in the industry. But, you know, nobody had heard of me yet, so that wasn't, you know, wasn't getting a lot of traction that way.
Susan Hazel Rich:But then in 2018 and 2019, I exhibited at the national trade shows in New York the New York now, and at the time there was the national stationery show. So I exhibited at those in-person trade shows and that really got me out in front of all of these different stores that come to buy from that, from that venue. Briefly, in there, you know, etsy had a little wholesale section of their website that kind of came and went pretty quickly. And then in 2018, I did Join Fair, which is a wholesale platform, and it's sort of become the leader in the industry as far as digital spaces, but sort of a digital trade show, if you will, where buyers can access our wholesale shop online. That was very much a supplement because everyone was still very focused on the traditional in-person trade shows. But you know this story the pandemic came and that really transitioned everything. I mean, the in-person shows were closed and it forced a lot of shops who were hesitant to check out Fair and see what was going on there, and then that sort of flipped the switch for us and so Fair has become the main way that people find us. I think we're just about ready to start considering going back to those in-person trade shows.
Susan Hazel Rich:Post-pandemic we were a little slow to get back to things, but I think that is starting to feel like something we would invest in again and balance those two components as far as the digital and the in-person. But something that's been interesting is, more recently we've gotten back to those roots of doing the mailings again, doing that cold outreach by sending handwritten notes and samples in a catalog, and because the work is more established and in some regards, recognized, I think we're getting a lot more traction than I did in those very early days with that and seeing a really great return on those actual physical mailers. And so the best answer to it is really that it's just this wide combination and sometimes it feels like throwing stuff out of wall and seeing what sticks. But I think that is part of it, because the climate is always changing. It's always different than just seeing what's working for you personally, where you are financially with your business.
Susan Hazel Rich:Not everyone can afford to exhibit in New York. It's extremely expensive. So just figuring out some combination of things that's working for you right now and, I think, for me, not being afraid to just try something new and see if it does work, and having really good spreadsheets to track OK, we did this. It cost this much. How many people did we hear back from or orders did we get?
Andy Heise:What's the do you have? How does fair work? If I had a shop, could I go on and buy your stuff? Or is there like a evaluation? Do you kind of say yeah, we're a good fit, or maybe we're not a good fit?
Susan Hazel Rich:Well, fair is the in between. So technically, as a shop owner, you're buying from fair and I'm selling to fair, so they are vetting shop owners. I can't tell you exactly what that looks like. We are sort of researching those new shops to make sure that they are a good fit, in the sense of like, it doesn't serve either of us very well to for them to invest, so wholesale is a long game for both of us, so it doesn't serve them. If they're bringing in my work, maybe a certain product category, and I just know from past experience it's not going to do well, that doesn't happen often, very rarely. But yeah, we are definitely looking in and seeing like, ok, what is your shop like? Where are you at? Is over saturated in that area? I would definitely let someone know about that. Maybe they care, maybe they don't. Or, oh my gosh, you didn't pick up this section of greeting cards and they would do fantastic in your shop.
Andy Heise:So maybe telling them that yeah, so that conversation happens before the transaction.
Susan Hazel Rich:They place an order and then we have time to accept or decline the order.
Andy Heise:So you do have an option to accept or decline.
Susan Hazel Rich:Yes, yes, yes, yes. So we do have that option. I don't think we really decline any of the shops in the relationships we're getting on fair have always been very positive for me. Yeah.
Andy Heise:And are they mostly like brick and mortar retail types of things? Are there other online shops that you wholesale to as well?
Susan Hazel Rich:So there's an option on fair as a brand, which is what I am on. There I can choose to sell to brick and mortar only, online only or combination stores. So we have the online only shops turned off. There's just a variety of reasons with that. As far as some of the exclusivity agreements that I have, it doesn't work for me. But you have the option to sort of tailor what shops can see you. You can also have the option to only sell to one shop per zip code at a time, but we have that turned off as well because we've just found that zip codes aren't the best way to describe the areas where we're selling all the time. Sometimes a zip code is a really big area and it's OK to have a couple of shops at either end of it.
Andy Heise:Yeah, yeah, that's well, and that's the question I was going to ask is how do you balance that wholesaling versus online e-commerce? And it sounds like that's kind of built into this platform that you use fair.
Susan Hazel Rich:It is, and I think this was another pandemic shift. A lot of my shops didn't have online stores and there was a huge ramble in the beginning of that, when their shops shut down, to get them up and running online and that was something that I was there and ready to help. My background and web design and I wasn't designing these shops for people, but just like OK, listen, I can help you, let's figure out how to provide them with a Google Drive full of photos and descriptions. So that transition happened and our entire industry had to shift. There was a really strong push early on to not allow your work to be sold online because that didn't create an even selling platform, but that just kind of had to go out the window, and I think I don't know if I have a single shop that doesn't have an online presence.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, we recently interviewed someone who had a public relations company that focuses on the fashion industry. He said that at least 95% of the marketing they do is digital. What percentage of digital to print do you use for your retail shop, and why?
Susan Hazel Rich:I would say 100% of my marketing for my online retail store is digital. Very little, I think you know that makes sense. It's an online shop.
Announcer:Sure.
Susan Hazel Rich:So we're using social media and, more recently, we're using our newsletters to to create that interest, to create that connection and to actually story tell a lot more. So in the last few months I hired a new studio manager and their background is actually in English and well in Spanish, but in writing and editing. So they they came in with this great excitement for what these newsletters could be. Previously they were just sales points like here's something to buy, here's a sale, and we've completely well, they have completely overhauled my newsletter outreach and we're just seeing such a great connection with people, so much feedback, so much conversation is happening with those with those newsletters and and it's really because they've gone to to be zero selling and in totally about storytelling, like what seems so obvious to me why I make a design choice, or why we choose to rebrand or not rebrand, repackage a product, or where I source my towels, why my towels are the measurements they are. I mean everything that I think so deeply about. I've realized it's so exciting to share because it's not obvious to other people and they and they want to know where things come from, why they are the way they are. And you know, one thing that's been kind of full circle is. You know, thinking back to my early days when I was working with these small businesses and trying to extract from them, you know, what is special and unique about your product, what is unique about the values that you have as a business, the one thing that really stinks about being good at that is that you is you can't do it for yourself. And so having someone come in with this energy to try to and bring that, you know, bring that to me, and and watching what I used to do for other people being possible, Like I knew, I always knew that it was missing from hands made I just I just didn't have the tools to do it for myself. So that has been really fun to see.
Susan Hazel Rich:And then you know, with the wholesale store, that, that, that fair space or those relationships and building the shops you know that's some of the similar digital elements as far as like social media and newsletters. But you know that group of people, those shop owners, are just so inundated with digital marketing all of the time that it just doesn't make sense to hit that as hard and we're trying to create these long like ongoing relationships with them and so, partially, I want it to mean more and feel different. So we do, like I said, those sample sets, the catalog mailers. We write thank you notes and holiday cards to them and we're just trying to reach them in some different ways and, you know, also just getting them to focus on what we're trying to deliver to them or say or communicate, by giving them something that they you know they don't really get a lot in their physical mailboxes. If they do, maybe it's just bills. And so, as a business owner, yeah, I recognize that it that it's nice to to get that different type of communication.
Nick Petrella:So probably a smaller percentage of print in that regard 10%, 5% 15% For the wholesale.
Susan Hazel Rich:I would say it's about 50% digital marketing and 50% physical. Okay yeah.
Nick Petrella:What has proven most effective for the 50-50?
Susan Hazel Rich:The physical the physical mailers we send out. Yeah, we're, I'm really trying to, we'll always have that digital component. I mean that just makes sense. But we're putting more and more energy into how can we send different types of sample sets, how can we communicate just different ways, like smaller touch points, easier things like just sending a handwritten thank you card after their first order, to just make that relationship feel as special as I want it to feel. And I don't think we can always communicate that digitally. So having that, that that piece and you know I sell thank you cards, I sell what I'm creating is this idea that my work doesn't end with me, I, someone else purchases it and it becomes part of their story, their gift, their letter that they're writing. So having that be part of our marketing I mean I don't even really want to call it marketing, but it's just part of it's I mean it's part of who we are so having.
Nick Petrella:that. It's your brand. Yeah, it's part of your brand.
Susan Hazel Rich:It just makes sense to do, to do that piece.
Andy Heise:So you mentioned earlier that you're currently using Shopify for your website e-commerce platform.
Susan Hazel Rich:Yes.
Andy Heise:Have you used, have you always used, shopify or did you try other things before? And how do you evaluate, make those switches, those sorts of things?
Susan Hazel Rich:This is, you know, the same idea that I think it's. It has to be the best fit for, for who you are, where you're at in your business and where you are financially. So Shopify was not where I started. It is an investment. I started with Etsy. That's more affordable and then also because people didn't know about .
Susan Hazel Rich:As we all know, etsy is a place where the buyers already there, shoppers are there, and so I don't have to rely on brand recognition or those types of things. So that worked for me for for many years. And then eventually I really sat down and thought about the math on Shopify. So, although it feels expensive, it really is about the the same amount of fees that I would pay for one of my top like pop-up or craft markets, but it lasts all year round. And rethinking that financial component really helped me figure out. Like, okay, but this is a shop that's going to be open 24, seven, 365. So that made sense. And it also made sense at the moment because I was I was I don't know maybe like year five or six of my business and so there were people knew about me and so I didn't have to rely as much on the traffic component so I could use social media. Was was a bigger part and you know people could find me a little bit easier outside of the the reins of Etsy.
Andy Heise:And so, again, that decision was okay. I think it makes financial sense for me to move to my own platform. I think we've got enough brand recognition and traction that we can direct people directly to our website. We don't need to be part of this larger marketplace.
Susan Hazel Rich:Yeah, it definitely was, and I think it's about just it's always been for me about feeling comfortable About that investment and that's just. I think the big thread that's been going through this conversation is this doesn't happen overnight and it's scary, it's something that I worry about all of the time. It comes from that place of still to this day wondering like, well, will there be a tomorrow? You know like, yes, there will be. We've been doing this for so many years, like, but you're still always nervous, like that the something's going to fall out and from underneath, and can I make this jump or this leap? And Shopify isn't even a fee that I think about anymore, because it just makes sense.
Susan Hazel Rich:But it was very. There was a lot of pressure. There is always that pressure of like everyone has a Shopify or everyone's making a real, or everyone's going to New York to exhibit. You know there's I'm not doing enough and you, just, I, just you have to kind of put that noise away and be like, okay, this is what works for me right now, but also not be scared to take that jump. Yeah.
Andy Heise:Yeah Well, and your point about this doesn't. None of this happens overnight, you know, I think. I think from the outside, if you're not directly involved, for example working with a lot of students, they're like, okay, I just make decisions and that's what, that's just what happens. And they're like, no, you made that decision after several years of using, of doing something else which led you to that point, right? So I think I think that that's a, it's a great point.
Susan Hazel Rich:Well, and we don't make time to talk about all of the things that you try that didn't work and like, let's make time for that. I did a lot of free websites, like free e-commerce websites, and they were glitchy and they made bad connections with customers. People were disappointed. I looked on professional. I tried to go that free route many times and it just it didn't work and so I stopped and I said Etsy is working for now, and when you're ready to do it like, do it well and do it right and don't try to short change yourself and all of the work you've put into this brand to have a bad experience because you're trying to do it like a cheaper way. I mean, yes, there's free, free things, there's free resources, but but those online sites that I was trying were just, they weren't great, they weren't working. Yeah.
Andy Heise:Yeah.
Nick Petrella:Susan, all businesses have growing pains. What's been your biggest growing pain and what could you tell others experiencing the same issues?
Susan Hazel Rich:I think I might be in it right now. That's the current, no, not this podcast.
Andy Heise:Oh, that's good, but it's really it'll be, it'll be over soon, I promise.
Susan Hazel Rich:No, it's really been about time management and valuing my time. So, as an entrepreneur, as someone who's building a business, I've often heard it described that in order to make this work, you have to be addicted to work, you have to be passionate without end, you have to be willing to put in that work in order to push this thing up the hill every single day for the last nine and a half years. But at some point you're going to have to pivot. You're going to have to say, okay, my time is limited, my energy does have an end point, and recognize your incredible value at the center of this thing. And so that's really.
Susan Hazel Rich:What I've been trying to figure out is having this very specific relationship with for so many years, where I just love showing up for . I love what I do, I love working nonstop on this thing. It is the only thing that I will wake up at four in the morning to do. I mean, it is the only thing that I will work late to do, and every single day, and I don't want to take breaks from it. But I also need to realize there needs to be some sort of balance as well, because I can't keep doing this for the next I don't know 20 or 30 or whatever many years it's going to be.
Susan Hazel Rich:So redefining that relationship that I have with and figuring out how to manage my time a little bit differently and find my value in the sense of like having that space and that separation. So some of the things that have been helping with that are getting this studio for the first time that's outside of my home, to create some separation between home and work. That's going okay, but I'm still trying to figure it out. Then hiring this team that helps me as well and help take some of the tasks like not some of a lot of the tasks off my hands and just trying to figure out that balance as far as space and people and tasks and those sorts of things. So that's been the hardest thing that I've had to do is really just change the way that I think that I relate to and that I see my own worth and value inside of what I do. I can still be successful and valuable and important if I'm not doing this 24-7. That it's going to be okay.
Nick Petrella:Mm-hmm Good.
Andy Heise:Yeah, I can tell that is a direct extension of who you are, yes, and a lot of artists who have businesses. That's very evident. I'm thinking of a few examples in my head. And that passion, that drive, that sort of what's the word I'm looking for You're compelled to do it right. That is evident in your work.
Susan Hazel Rich:Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I think it's probably a really common thing to experience. It doesn't feel like work and I think that's why it works. But at some point, the success that I've earned is the ability to have this studio space, to have this team, and I need to let that happen, but that's really hard. It's really hard.
Andy Heise:Yeah, adding more variables into the equation.
Nick Petrella:Yes.
Andy Heise:Susan, we've reached the point of the interview where we ask all of our interviewees the same three questions, and the first question is what advice would you give to others wanting to become an art entrepreneur?
Susan Hazel Rich:I would say to every feedback that you receive.
Susan Hazel Rich:Every point of feedback that you receive has value to it. So, whether you receive a positive or constructive email or whatever it might be, give yourself the space to maybe be upset about it or be excited about it. Whatever way it wins, and then really look at that and listen and grow from it. So, even if we get some feedback that it's like well, maybe you just didn't read the product listing the right way because that information was there. Whatever it might be, there's still a chance for me to look at that product listing and say, but okay, could it be different, could it be better? And, as someone who for a long time, was growing the business by themselves, now I do have a team, but there's so many limited ideas and ways of hearing or thinking about things, and so every point that we receive feedback is an opportunity to grow, and I think that has served me really well from the start is just it's so rare that you get any feedback, so taking that time to use it, however, you might see that there's like an opportunity in it.
Nick Petrella:What can we do to ensure the arts are more accessible and reaching the widest possible audience?
Susan Hazel Rich:I think, globally, just having things like this, like free podcasts one of the courses that I am investing in she has an entire section of free podcasts that I listen to, not mad about it, every single episode that she had.
Susan Hazel Rich:There's a lot of free information there and then, when I was ready investing in her courses, but there's just a, I think having those free components accessing lectures at universities have started to have them more open to the public. I attend those sorts of things all the time, more and more of these business incubator programs, like I mentioned, and then you know we're trying to do that here at Hazelmade as well, like I do mentorships in my studio with students. We do a lot of educational outreach as far as doing lectures and partnering with different local universities, just trying to tell my story and be really honest about what worked and what didn't. And you know, like we talked about today some things that are a little bit uncomfortable, but people can learn from that and so sharing your story, whether it might be in person or through our newsletters or social media, those types of things.
Andy Heise:Lastly, what's the best artistic or entrepreneurial advice anyone's ever given you?
Susan Hazel Rich:So that would probably have to go back to my professors at Kent State there in the early 2000s. That group of professors at the time they sort of all pushed on us to just never stop asking questions, never stop asking what worked, what didn't work, how could this be better or different? And that's something that I do in my work you know my design work but I've also found it to be really beneficial as I figure out how to be a manager of people and working with this group and this team. So definitely never, never stop asking questions.
Nick Petrella:Perfect. Well, it's been great having you on and just it's just been really refreshing to hear your open and honest dialogue about growing your business, and I know the listeners are going to learn a lot.
Susan Hazel Rich:Thank you for having me. It's been really fun to talk about this. I think any opportunity to sort of stop the daily and really think about you know what I'm doing it energizes me as well. So thank you for the chance to do that.
Andy Heise:Thanks.
Announcer:Susan. Thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please subscribe. Visit artsentrepreneurshippodcastcom to learn more about our guests and how you can help support artists, the arts and this podcast.