This week on the podcast is part two of our interview with Stephen Yusko. He’s a Cleveland-based artist who creates sculptures, furniture, and vessels, using mixed materials combined with forged, machined, and fabricated steel. Stephen also creates public art and jewelry. He has taught at several schools and universities, including Haystack School of Crafts (ME), Penland School of Crafts (NC), and SUNY Purchase, where he was a Windgate Artist-in-Residence. http://stephenyusko.com/
We explore the intricacies of selling art and pricing strategies. Through his firsthand experience, we learn about the delicate balancing act between perceived and actual value, and the methodical approach he employs to successfully navigate the challenging landscape of selling and pricing his artwork. From sculptures and vessels to the seemingly straightforward world of jewelry, Stephen shares his journey in this exciting and intricate market.
Stephen discusses the importance of time management, resource allocation, and the powerful role social media can play. And yes, we talk about collaboration too, because no or artist is an island, and every successful entrepreneur knows the power of a good partnership. Prepare to garner vital entrepreneurial lessons from Stephen's wealth of experience and insights. This episode is a treasure trove of knowledge for aspiring artists, established creators, or anyone curious about the business side of the art world.
This week on the podcast is part two of our interview with Stephen Yusko. He’s a Cleveland-based artist who creates sculptures, furniture, and vessels, using mixed materials combined with forged, machined, and fabricated steel. Stephen also creates public art and jewelry. He has taught at several schools and universities, including Haystack School of Crafts (ME), Penland School of Crafts (NC), and SUNY Purchase, where he was a Windgate Artist-in-Residence. http://stephenyusko.com/
We explore the intricacies of selling art and pricing strategies. Through his firsthand experience, we learn about the delicate balancing act between perceived and actual value, and the methodical approach he employs to successfully navigate the challenging landscape of selling and pricing his artwork. From sculptures and vessels to the seemingly straightforward world of jewelry, Stephen shares his journey in this exciting and intricate market.
Stephen discusses the importance of time management, resource allocation, and the powerful role social media can play. And yes, we talk about collaboration too, because no or artist is an island, and every successful entrepreneur knows the power of a good partnership. Prepare to garner vital entrepreneurial lessons from Stephen's wealth of experience and insights. This episode is a treasure trove of knowledge for aspiring artists, established creators, or anyone curious about the business side of the art world.
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Announcer:Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast. Making art work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.
Andy Heise:Hello podcast listeners. My name is Andy Heise and I'm Nick Petrella.
Nick Petrella:Stephen Yusko is with us today. He's a Cleveland-based artist who creates sculptures, furniture and vessels using mixed materials combined with forged, machined and fabricated steel. Stephen also creates public art and jewelry. He has taught at several schools and universities, including Haystack School of Crafts, penland School of Crafts and SUNY Purchase, where he was a Wingate artist in residence. Stephen's works have been in exhibits internationally and among his many awards, he's received four Ohio Arts Council Individual Artist Excellence Awards. We'll have his site in the show notes so you can learn more about Stephen and his art. Thanks for being with us today, stephen. Good morning.
Stephen Yusko:Thanks for having me on.
Nick Petrella:So, stephen, what do you find easier to sell the sculptures, vessels or furniture and why?
Stephen Yusko:You know I don't know that I could pinpoint anyone that's easier than the other one. I suppose, nick, the easiest thing to sell is probably jewelry because you know people see there's a perceived value with that. Like, I can pretty much guarantee you, if I have a $2,000 vessel or a $2,000 piece of jewelry, most people would be drawn to purchasing the $2,000 piece of jewelry over the vessel. Now, that said, I've sold a lot of the vessels that I've made. I've actually sold most of them. I've taken commissions. I have two commissions right now to make some.
Stephen Yusko:So it's just, it's really hard to say what has been the best thing for me personally, but I think, you know, it's much easier to sell a wall piece probably because you know than an object. So I mean those are things that you may want, you know. I mean certainly I've thought about that at some times like, okay, I probably should have some pieces that go on the wall because they can be placed easier into a collection or somebody's home, as opposed to the commitment of a space of this object needs to go here if it's, you know, bigger, you know a smaller piece, you know, I mean people have things on their mantles and on furniture and all that. So you know. So I mean that certainly would be something that you know.
Stephen Yusko:I suppose if you're just starting out or you need to really figure out how you're going to make money doing this, then you may want to develop your works and something that you think it might actually sell, I suppose to you know, make it a bunch of big weird sculptures that are indoor and there's a well, nobody has the space for that. They're not going to get that. You know, I've had a lot of people ask me of some indoor pieces I make and go outside. But I mean they can, but they'll be ruined you know.
Stephen Yusko:So if these are, things that you know that you need to think about when you're making a wide variety of different works. So yeah, so I don't really have an answer to that question as to what sells better than others. I mean, sometimes, you know, like I said, I had that solo show at the Sculpture Center and I sold most of the works out of the show and I certainly didn't really plan on that. I mean, you know a business model of an artist to just make a bunch of really cool stuff and stuff and hope somebody buys it. You know that's probably not the best business plan out there but you know, somehow it has worked for me, luckily. That's great.
Andy Heise:How do you approach pricing your work and how has that evolved over the years?
Stephen Yusko:Well, I saw a lecture once by Dave Hickey, who is a very well-known art critic. This was while I was in graduate school, so it's been a couple of decades ago. He had an idea that smallish art should be a couple hundred dollars and larger art should be a thousand dollars, unless he says, as an art critic says, otherwise. He also brought up the point that as demand approaches one and supply approaches zero, the price approaches infinity. I thought those were two nice observations from a very well-known art critic. How do you price your work? You could be very methodical about it if you were doing more production work, and you should be. Calculate the design time that you've got into it, the materials and the time and all those costs that go into it. Break that down, calculate in your insurance and whatever else what all your expenses are and you figure out what your hourly rate needs to be and then you calculate how many hours it takes you to build this thing. That makes sense to do it that way. On certain things that I've been able to do something like that, I made mounts for the St Louis Art Museum and the Metal Museum. If you go to a museum and you see an object on display I would design, build whatever holds that up. There are certain set prices that this amount would be this much, this would be that much. They're all individual so it changes In that kind of case. I'm looking at more of an hourly studio rate. I know I need to make X amount of dollars per hour to keep the studio running this job. I'm going to charge time and materials. Sometimes it's pretty straightforward and you can do that.
Stephen Yusko:When you're creating a one-of-a-kind piece for an exhibition, I don't know how do you price it. You look at other artists who are in your field and where do they price their works? I know a lot of people who do architectural work price like a handrail by the foot it's X dollars per foot or a gate is the same thing. I don't do a lot of that type of work. Ultimately, I suppose it's what the market will bear and what you need to survive to keep the doors open. I mean, there's the old running joke about the blacksmith who wins the lottery and his friends ask him what he's going to do with all the money. He says, well, I'm just going to keep working until I run out of money. That's not necessarily the greatest approach either. I suppose it's what the market will bear.
Stephen Yusko:What you've sold work for in the past, can you keep increasing that? If I sold a box for $800 10 years ago, then just by inflation that box needs to be a good bit more than that now. All those factors come into play when you're trying to figure out what your work should be priced at. I've sold work where a person has bought it and said you really, this needs to be more, you should charge more. Then I've had other things where I've put a price on it. Man, I'm never going to sell it at that price, but that's what I want to get for it and it sells.
Stephen Yusko:Then does that establish the new price point for that piece? Not necessarily. There's no real answer. That's the hard part. I really would love it if I could say okay, this sculpture is going to be $10,000, because that's what everything else this computer costs X thousands of dollars. That's just what the market, that's what it is for. That it's always an individual choice. Or also a gallerist might say okay, listen, your prices are too high, they're too low. It's always good also to get some input from other people who are actually selling the work. This gallery director at Pendlin School might say look, you need to put this work at this particular price point. I think that's always helpful. Also to think, too, that if it is in a gallery as an artist, what percentage are you getting of that? Or if you're doing a craft show, what percentage of the sales actually is profit? You have so many friends who have done different craft shows and they're like oh yeah, it was a good week. I made $10,000 in New York. You sold $10,000 worth of stuff and you didn't make $10,000.
Stephen Yusko:You spent $2,000 on getting there and lodging and feeding yourself. You just have to think about all these things and that's what's complicated and interesting. And on a good day it's fun, and on a bad day, why am I doing this?
Nick Petrella:You sound like a business person. You said you're only an artist stumbling through this with luck and good wishes, but you do consider all this.
Stephen Yusko:Well, I think about it. I think about updating that website, but I don't necessarily do it. My situation has changed in the last year. My wife and I split. It was very amicable and we just grew apart. I had to move my studio. The studio had nothing to do with the split. They both happened at the same time. It was a fairly traumatic year of big changes, but within those big changes it's really exciting.
Stephen Yusko:Again on a good day, I have a fresh start at 50 plus years old, to do this all over again. I have to look at this more now because I'm responsible for everything at the moment. I think that's really. It's scary as hell, but it's also really exciting to know that I have to make this work because, like the Apollo missions, failure is not an option. I mean, I've been doing this too long to not keep doing this. I'm pretty much unemployable at this point.
Stephen Yusko:This is what I do, it's what I know how to do, and again, I do a very wide variety of things, and so I have to start thinking more about, you know, how do I make money? How do I support myself? How do I pay for the studio? How do I pay for my house? How do I pay for the bicycles? How do I? You know, how do you just make this work?
Stephen Yusko:And so I have to approach this more thinking about a business, whereas before, you know, I wasn't necessarily so concerned about making money. I just wanted to make the best artwork I can, always with the hope that, if I do my best work, the right people who like it and can afford to buy it or who want to support my studio. That way they will buy the work, and so it's still. It's still. My main thrust really is to just I always want to have the best work I can make, whether it's a mount for an object for a museum or someone's collection, or if it's a, you know, a sculpture for a solo show or whatever. I just I think it's always important to do the best work that you can do and hopefully you know that will find a buyer. I mean, it'll usually find an audience, you know. But likes on Instagram, you know, and kudos are not going to pay the rent, and so, you know, you have to figure out, well, how am I going to move this work?
Stephen Yusko:So yeah, I'm thinking about it more and more now with my different situations, so it's important obviously.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, vanity metrics, don't pay the bills.
Stephen Yusko:But it is nice to have you know, especially from your peers. When, you know, when I put up something on Instagram and you know a bunch of other metalsmiths, you know comment on it or like it, I mean it's always nice. You know, I'm sure you enjoy playing in front of other musicians and like, oh man, you guys are killing it. That's so cool. So, yeah, I mean that's, that's always really nice. But yeah, and then like, really like, one of the ultimate compliments is when someone else in your field buys your work.
Stephen Yusko:You know like, I just got a commission from a jeweler to make a brooch and like that is so cool that another jeweler likes my work and I'm just great. So yeah, that's always good.
Nick Petrella:Great. So, as a business owner and someone who sells items and art worth thousands of dollars, do you ever consider the health of the economy before you create art? Or to the people who buy your art, they're just not really as affected by it.
Stephen Yusko:Well, you know that would be. That would be really forward thinking and business savvy. And I don't want to pretend to be that smart about all this, but I mean I will say that you know again, now that you know I'm in, I'm in this situation where I'm completely self supported. I would probably have to very I would have to think pretty hard about if someone said hey, would you like to have a solo show here? I would like to pursue having a solo show. Do I have time and the resources to dedicate three, four months or whatever it's gonna take to build a body of work? Or over the course of several years to build a body of work for that show? Because I don't wanna.
Stephen Yusko:I mean the pieces I do for the most part take. They take a little while to make. I'm not super fast in building things. I mean people around the field know that I'm very meticulous and very well crafted works are what I produce and that just takes time, a lot of time. So that would certainly have an impact thinking about that.
Stephen Yusko:Like, have I saved enough money to are my bills covered for the next two months where I can afford to not take any work, just close the doors to any new things and just focus on making a body of work. And again, I'm not gonna make a full body of work in two months. I need more time than that. So it's again trying to figure out how do I balance all this out. I wanna make work, I have things I wanna talk about and ideas that I wanna get out there, but I also know that, okay, I've gotta come up with this much money per month to make my bills and figure out how this goes. So, yeah, I don't really. I'm still in the process of figuring out what that actual magic balance is.
Stephen Yusko:And one of the beauties, too, of working for yourself is that, especially in this area, you get a nice sunny day and it's like, okay, I can afford to go out for a couple hours on my bicycle and I'll work tonight, or you just I think that's one of the greatest luxuries of being self-employed is that you can actually and it's really the main advantage Like, why else would you be self-employed? I mean, I can have a much easier life if I go work for somebody else from nine to five, or whatever those hours might be, and come home and just have my time to do whatever I want with. I know I get paid every two weeks or whatever and I get insurance, but I just I think it's really fun to be able to just try to sort this life out and do what you like to do and make it work. So yeah, that's sort of where everything is just make it work.
Andy Heise:Yeah, we talked about your Instagram page a little bit ago, but I was taking a look at it. It's very well put together and it's a good mix of showcasing both your work and your process. Is that something? Do you manage your Instagram page or do you have some help with that?
Stephen Yusko:I do manage that myself and I do try to keep it sort of up to date. I mean I'm a little bit behind the last couple of months of posting things. But I very consciously want the Instagram to be mostly just the studio. I don't want it to be here's what I had for dinner, unless that relates somehow to the studio, to the work. Like I mean, if I made some flatware then obviously I would post maybe this is the meal that we eat with the flatware or something like there's a really wonderful maker named Erica Moody up in Maine and she makes gorgeous flatware and her photos are spectacular and she's promoting the entire lifestyle of her studio and what she makes. So I mean I do a little bit of that lifestyle thing as it relates to the studio practice. But yeah, so it is fairly carefully curated what I post up there to relate to the work, to the studio. Like I think I've probably put some photos. Maybe see that again, that's where stories are nice too for Instagram or Facebook. Yeah, you can put stories up. Like I love photography. I think it's really important to my work is going out into the world with that rectangle and making pictures and really kind of training your eye to see things.
Stephen Yusko:I did a lot of photography work in graduate school. I studied the science of how photography works in a year long class called Sensitometry and did a deep, deep dive into it, and half my thesis show in graduate school was photography. And I think it's really important to learn how to look at things and also to frame things literally and metaphorically, like what do you wanna have in your frame, what do you want out of your frame and what happens on the edges of that frame I think are really important. There was a curator at the Museum of Modern Art I think his name was Pete Bennell and he talked about it in my graduate school PhotoProf talked about the Bennell zone, which is the quarter inch around the frame.
Stephen Yusko:You know, like, what's in there and what's not. You know, I think you know I always try to shoot full frame. I don't really wanna crop too much, if I can help it, you know. So you really you have to pay attention to everything in that frame and I think that's really a nice metaphor for going through life and you know how we look at things. You know what comes into your life and what goes out of your life and what's around those edges. That's important to you. I don't know if that really answered your question. I know we kind of veered off there.
Andy Heise:No, I mean to your point. My question was about you know, how do you think about your Instagram presence? And it sounds like it's very intentional and there's a lot of thought that goes into it.
Stephen Yusko:Yeah, I think it's important to you know, like you said, like someone like Erica really has, her Instagram page is so carefully curated and calculated and it's just, it's perfect, it's so beautiful, you know. So I think it's, I think it's for me, that's a way for me to sort of simplify things. Like this is what I'm doing. I'll put in the story Like this is something that I saw that was cool. This is someone else's work and those stories last for 24 hours and hopefully people see it. You know, and I also I don't want to be somebody who's going to post like multiple times a day. If I can get something up once a week, which I haven't done since really August, you know, I will probably post more on Instagram coming. You know, moving forward, I have a backlog of things I've built that need to get up there and get out into the public realm. So, yeah, I think that's a really nice way.
Stephen Yusko:And it links to Facebook, my Facebook studio page. You know I have a Facebook account, personal Steven Yusko and I have a studio page, steven Yusko Studios and hopefully most people that are my friends on Facebook also follow the studio page. But I think it's important to keep those separate. Yeah, it's just like if someone goes to my Instagram, they're going to see work, they're going to see studio and thought process and all those type of things and they're not going to see, like you know, this is what I think politically. Or you know, here's a bike ride that I did. Or you know, those are really cool, those are fun Like. But I think it's, I think I want to keep it, just for the work.
Nick Petrella:Sure, yeah, that's smart. And well, when we link to all, every time someone says a name or a place or whatever, we tend to link to them either in the show notes and in the Instagram, so we'll link to Erika's as well. So it looks as though you've worked with other artists, and previously you mentioned Stephen Menka. What was that like? And when you do work with other artists, does it change your creative process?
Stephen Yusko:Well, I think it has to change the creative process just a little bit. I mean, like when I worked with Menka, I think we were a really good collaborative team because we both brought things to the table that the other one doesn't. So I mean, ultimately, that is a really good reason to collaborate with somebody when you can offer different skill sets. So, like the bridge project, for example, there's no way that project happens without both of us working on it Individually. He couldn't have built what we built and I couldn't have built what we built. You know he brought things like the computer skills, like so we drew all that in Rhino, a 3D modeling program. But you know we sit together and I draw on a big notepad or on the floor with soapstone, you know. So we're generating ideas.
Stephen Yusko:But then to put it in the computer to be able to turn it, look at it, have all the cut lists to send off to the laser cutters and Steve's really good with lighting. So you know that piece has all different color kinetic lighting inside of it. You know that's programmable and all that. And building of it, like that's where I come in to build it all and to, you know, design the little moments in there. So there's, like you know, within the 13 and a half foot tall sculpture, there's a 17 by nine inch by nine inch box and each on each side of the bridge. One is horizontally laid in, the other ones vertically, and there's a little moment that happens in there that relates to the whole column, the whole pie pile on and so yeah. So so I think I think having doing collaborative work like that, where you each bring something the other doesn't have, is really a great way to take on some projects that you might not be able to do as quickly or as well individually, you know.
Stephen Yusko:And then collaborating with somebody who is just, you know, you have a lot of respect with, so, like my friend Daniel and Venezuela, I mean he's, he's not even like my brother. Daniel is my brother. I mean I'm as close to him as I am to anybody in the world and you know. So it's fun to do projects with Daniel, like we've co taught at Penland and haystack.
Stephen Yusko:And you know, when you, when you're collaborating with somebody, you have to have more accountability. I think that's important as well. It's like if I'm writing with a group of guys, I'm accountable to that group of guys. You know, if I don't feel like riding hard, but they're all writing hard, I either ride hard or I get dropped, you know. And and I don't want to screw them up by doing something that's stupid and crashing and wiping out a whole line of guys and I think when you're collaborating with somebody, it's the same kind of thing like I, you have to pull your weight and and it just it's so nice to have that that the collective brain power and energy of one or two or however many people. I mean I'm the coach.
Stephen Yusko:I always look at that as a collaborative. I mean, I'm the person leading this collaborative endeavor, you know, and then if I can do that with somebody like Daniel to coach each, I think it just makes it makes for a much better class, because they've got the students have the power of the team with Daniel and I were really like one, one body because I've known so well. So, yeah, but I think I think the collaboration is really fun. Typically in my work, I work alone, I don't collaborate with a lot of people, but it's something I've done a little bit more in the last 10 years or so and I really find it interesting and it's challenging and it's fun and it's really rewarding. So, yeah, I think it's a nice way to go that would encourage straight people to do more of that.
Andy Heise:Well, stephen, we've reached the point of our interview where we ask all of our interviewees the same three questions, and the first question is what advice would you give to others wanted to become an entrepreneur?
Stephen Yusko:Well, I mean, I can probably go on about this for a long time, but I think one of the one of the most important things to start out, whether you're going to school or whatever, is to don't have debt. I did. I worked at a little museum when I graduated from undergrad and I thought, man, I'm, I'm a professional and I can afford all this stuff, and I went so into debt and it was so stupid and I went to graduate school later in life with debt like a truck payment, and that was so exciting. And so, yeah, no debt, keep your overhead low. I think those are really important. And then also there's a.
Stephen Yusko:There's a graph that I like. It's an equilateral triangle and hopefully you're the dot in the middle, because the three sides of that equilateral triangle are ideas, time and resources, and so if any of those three get smaller, the other two have to get larger in order for that triangle to remain closed. And so I think you know my advice would be if you don't have a lot of money, resources, then you better make more time and you better have some pretty damn good ideas to keep that triangle closed. And so that's. I think you know it's kind of a simple graphic, but it really speaks to a bigger, a bigger thing that you know it's important to have this balance in your life and to keep that balance, and so I think that would be something that I would definitely I talk to people about often in teaching and giving a lecture is that particular triangle. I think that's really some good advice.
Nick Petrella:What can we do to ensure the arts are more accessible and reaching the widest possible audience?
Stephen Yusko:Well, you know, you could go on podcast, man. I mean, what is what I mean? It's really been. It's been nice to see in the last decade or so that you know there's so much more effort put into bringing more people into the art field and in all fields. But you know, I've seen that, obviously in blacksmithing. You know the really big effort. There's an organization called the Society of Inclusive Blacksmiths, you know, trying to bring in a lot more people. I mean typically, you know, blacksmithing is, you know, a bunch of old white guys with beards and you know. So it's been really great to see a really wide range of people getting more involved in working with iron and certainly within all the different metals fields.
Stephen Yusko:I think universities are doing a nice job of, well, those that are still running I mean, jesus, that's another conversation, isn't it? These universities that are all getting rid of the art programs. I think it's just criminal. I mean it's just so important to have this diversified thinking. You know, this ability to think non-linearly. I think that's such an important feature to have and I'm kind of surprised that a lot of other organizations aren't really understanding the value of that. You know, I know there's been a talk of putting STEM, you know, at the age and we need steam and to STEM and all those type of things. But yeah, so you know, how do we make it more accessible and reach the widest audience?
Stephen Yusko:I think also just by outreach for the artists. I think it's really important for us to get out there, whether we're, you know, visual artists, performing artists, to just go out and do your thing, you know, promote your work, promote other people's works. I think the social media has been a really nice way for that to happen. You know, I mean I just know when I first started work and I, you know we're all in a bubble without the internet and I didn't know who else was doing what. And now you, I mean you've got the whole field at your fingertips. So I mean study what's going on out there and know where your work fits into that, and then, you know, get it out there. So, yeah, I suppose you know those are a few ways to go about doing that.
Andy Heise:Yeah, lastly, what's the best artistic or entrepreneurial advice you've ever been given?
Stephen Yusko:Well, I remember as an undergrad, I was my thesis semester and I'd go to my studio and I'd sit there and scratch my head and I had done this for like a week, two weeks, and my professor, a good friend and mentor, don Harvey, came in and he just said you go.
Announcer:What the hell, are you doing?
Stephen Yusko:He's like get to work. You just you know you're gonna sit there for the rest of the semester and you're not gonna make anything, just go to work. So I think, as a visual artist, it's really important to just go to your studio and make something, make anything. I mean. The only reason I was able to have a complete body of work for that solo show at the Sculpture Center in October of 2021, after doing the bridge project, which chewed up months and months every ounce of energy I had was because I had made other works I didn't.
Stephen Yusko:I basically I create my own found objects. So if I get stuck, I'll just make something. I don't know what it is, but I know if I make, it will produce more work. So making leads to more making, and I think that's been the really greatest advice I had. And then my dad always said you know, don't half-ass anything, you know. And so I think that's been really good advice as well. And then I always think about Whitey Herzog, you know the former Cardinals baseball manager. It's four rules of life which are be on time, bust your butt, play smart and have some fun while you're at it. So I think those are really important rules to live by.
Nick Petrella:That's great. It's a great way to end. It's been fun having you on the podcast and hearing your passion and your practical approach to business. Thanks for being on and let us know when those bottle openers are available.
Stephen Yusko:All right, thank you. And thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it. It's been good to talk to you both. Thanks, Stephen.
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