Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
#284: Heather Bhandari (CreativeStudy Co-Founder; Art/Work Co-Author) (pt. 1 of 2)
This week on the podcast is part one of our interview with Heather Bhandari. She’s the Co-Founder of CreativeStudy: an online business and financial health education platform for creatives. Heather is also an independent curator and writer; a co-founder of the project-based curatorial team and podcast, The RStyemix; and an adjunct lecturer at Brown University where she teaches professional practice to artists.She received a BA from Brown University and an MFA from Penn State University.
If you enjoy Heather's book Art/Work, you won't want to miss these episodes as we touch on a variety of topics from the book and beyond! https://heatherbhandari.com/; https://creativestudy.com/; https://theremix.nyc/
This week on the podcast is part one of our interview with Heather Bhandari. She’s the Co-Founder of CreativeStudy: an online business and financial health education platform for creatives. Heather is also an independent curator and writer; a co-founder of the project-based curatorial team and podcast, The RStyemix; and an adjunct lecturer at Brown University where she teaches professional practice to artists.She received a BA from Brown University and an MFA from Penn State University.
If you enjoy Heather's book Art/Work, you won't want to miss these episodes as we touch on a variety of topics from the book and beyond! https://heatherbhandari.com/; https://creativestudy.com/; https://theremix.nyc/
Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast. Making art work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts Andy Heiss and Nick Petrella.
Andy Heise:Hi podcast listeners. My name is Andy Heiss and.
Nick Petrella:I'm Nick Petrella. Heather Bhandari is on the podcast today. She's the co-founder of Creative Study, an online business and financial health education platform for creatives. Heather is also an independent curator and writer, a co-founder of the project-based curatorial team and podcast the Remix, and an adjunct lecturer at Brown University, where she teaches professional practice to artists. She received a BA from Brown University and an MFA from Penn State University. I pared down her lengthy bio for time, so you should definitely visit her links in the show notes so you can appreciate Heather's breadth and depth of experience. Heather, thanks so much for being on the podcast.
Heather Bhandari:Thank you, nick, for having me. Thanks Andy. Yeah, it's always great to have another Nittany Lion on the podcast.
Nick Petrella:Thank you, nick for having me Thanks.
Heather Bhandari:Andy.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, it's always great to have another Nittany Lion on the podcast.
Heather Bhandari:Love the Nittany Lions.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, that was a Nittany Lion sound. Andy, I've been there once, oh, okay.
Heather Bhandari:So let's begin. They kept seeing me during the paw thing, yeah.
Nick Petrella:Well, right, yeah, it's only audio.
Heather Bhandari:Yeah, it's only audio, let's begin by having you tell us how you got started as an entrepreneur. Well, I'm sort of a reluctant entrepreneur. To be quite honest, I didn't start that way, although I will say I got my MFA from Penn State, as you said, and I honestly think although this is a little bit controversial in certain circles I think that all artists are entrepreneurs to some extent, because you are creating a world you want to see and you have to move that world forward somehow. So, anyway, so I did get my MFA in art. So I think I had a little bit of that in me and that love of feedback and all of that that you get when you have an education in the arts.
Heather Bhandari:But I worked for many years for other people. But what happened to me? I worked in galleries for about 17, 16, 17 years, some mostly commercial and then also nonprofit. So mixed greens was the commercial gallery, Um, and a couple others before that, and then um, smack Mellon was the nonprofit and, um, they were both very small businesses. So I think I learned a lot about creating a business and running a business, because I worked in two very small businesses for a very long time.
Heather Bhandari:And the woman who actually started Mixed Greens, the commercial gallery. She sort of let go of the business. She was still part of it to some extent, but she let us sort of run it for many years, which was a dream for any Well, maybe not every employee, but maybe someone who has some sort of entrepreneurial spirit. So I learned from there. And then, when we closed Mixed Screens in 2016, so I learned about beginnings, I also learned about ends. Through that Went to Smack Mellon so to the nonprofit side of the world and then started things on my own. After that. However and I think we're going to talk about this later I've never actually started anything on my own. Also, it's always been with a partner. So, whether I've written a book or started creative study or run conferences like, it has always been with someone else. Because I do feel like, well, everything I've done since 2016 has been entrepreneurial. I've always needed someone to sort of balance me in all these situations and to have someone who also reinforces the idea and the movement forward. I like working on teams.
Nick Petrella:Yeah. So I just have a question Do you your partners are? Are they just like you, or are they vastly different, or does it vary?
Heather Bhandari:It varies, but they're different, Um, so I feel like I I owe it. We both always have the passion for the project. I think that's really important, but, um, I tend to be someone I don't know how this hour is going to go, because the feelings I'm having right now are going in a certain direction. But I tend to be the kind of person who's like, oh, but this could go wrong and that could go wrong. Did you guys see Inside Out 2 with anxiety?
Andy Heise:Not yet, but it's on our to-do list.
Heather Bhandari:So I feel like I've got a little bit of anxiety in there which is like oh, plan A, plan B, plan C, plan D, um. And I'm like I know too much, so we can't do that thing. And I need the other person to be like, oh, it's fine, let's just do it, it's going to be fine, we know enough. So I sort of need the person who's going to push forward in the times of uncertainty, I guess, and I can do it, I can do it, but I definitely need a partner to get through that, I think, psychologically speaking. But yeah, yeah, we both need the passion. One of us needs to like be a little more, I guess, brave.
Andy Heise:Sure, yeah, brave. Sure, yeah, be honest. So which which comes first for you, the project or the partner?
Heather Bhandari:Um, that depends, that depends. Um. So in most cases that all my the things I've done. So writing a book with a partner wrote the book artwork, which is a professional practice book for artists, which we'll talk about. Um, that was with a college friend named Jonathan Melber, which is a practice book for artists which we'll talk about. That was with a college friend named Jonathan Melber who was a lawyer. It started with a conversation about you know what this was years ago, in about 2007.
Heather Bhandari:I was just frustrated, I guess, with the way that the art world was functioning and the opacity in the art world back then. So, and I was working really hard at Mixed Screens to try to break that down, but there were things that I was still saying. I was still indoctrinated into that really opaque power dynamic that was happening in the gallery world. And he called me out on it. So and he's like wait, why are you saying that? You've been brainwashed too? And so there were different conversations we were having and I was like, ah, I need to like write this stuff down. And then he was like I need to write this stuff down because he was working for volunteer lawyers for the arts. So the two of us came together just to write things down so that we didn't. We just there was a resource that we couldn't find, that was out there about functioning in the visual arts, especially the gallery system for profit and nonprofit.
Heather Bhandari:Sure, trying to show your work and then fast forward to 20, about 2017, when I was doing, I was working at Smack Mellon but having conversations with a curator friend, dexter Wimberly, who we had worked together in the past on some projects, and we were talking about how no one talked about money in the art world. So I'd written that book, but we didn't really address money in a very direct way and we're like no one talks about money. It was kind of. It was the time when there were I'm not sure if you guys were privy to these, but there were some spreadsheets circulating in the visual art world about how much do professors get paid in the visual arts, also how much do curators get paid in institutions, and they were being disseminated on Google Docs so anyone could see and people were anonymously putting in their job title and how much money they got paid, were anonymously putting in their job title and how much money they got paid. So there was this want, this need, this desire for transparency and we're like why can't we all get together and talk about this stuff in person? So we started conferences together. So again it was a conversation and we're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do it, let's do it. And so I had one set of skills, he had a different set of skills. We ended up doing the conferences Fast forward to 2020.
Heather Bhandari:That conferences were definitely not a smart business plan and even as a reluctant entrepreneur, I knew 100% that was not a good business plan. You picked up on that. Yeah, most people got that. So 2020, we had to change things. So creative study was born because we had to do things online and we're like now it's even more important Like we were getting people together. We were gathering like 300 people at a time. It was really fun to actually talk about this stuff and make finance and business fun and a social event which happens all the time in other professions but unfortunately doesn't tend to happen so much with visual artists. So again, conversation, another conversation led to creative study. I feel like it's been very kismet sort of the way that things have happened.
Nick Petrella:You know, as you're talking, you said nobody's talking about money, and I'm wondering if it's. They were talking about money, but the visual artists weren't in the conversation.
Heather Bhandari:Well, that is the thing that I think this dovetails into a couple of the things I think you want to ask me about. But I feel like visual artists have been trained in a different way than musicians or people in theater, in a different way than musicians or people in theater A lot of times in the other arts you do work together with people and you do discuss, you do have contractors and things.
Heather Bhandari:Yeah, you understand that nothing happens without a team or without conversation, without cooperation, and I think one of the issues with the visual arts is that for many, many years we were sort of taught to believe that it was an individual genius that makes visual art. You sort of do it on your own and you struggle on your own and you make it on your own and it's all up to you, and I think in the last decade, hopefully, more people are being taught that that is definitely not the case, or they're understanding that's not the case. I do love the Gen Zers because I think they understand that.
Andy Heise:Sure, yeah. So how has your experience in, as a curator, working in galleries for profit, not for profit? How has that informed your perspective on arts, entrepreneurship or maybe even more specifically, the types of things that you teach to your students at Brown?
Heather Bhandari:Yeah, I mean, I guess I've been again without really realizing this was happening. With each job I had, with each artist I've worked with and at this point, I've worked with hundreds of them, maybe even thousands. I guess how old I actually am. I've learned that there are common problems that a lot of them have that are just not addressed by a lot of the systems that are in place and have historically been in place, and I've also recognized that each artist is different and that you can't have a one-size-fits-all sort of advice. Like my book, it does not pretend to be one-size-fits-all advice for every single visual artist.
Heather Bhandari:It actually says at the beginning and we redid it in 2017 to make this even more clear that, like, you need to take your own path, but these are the expectations, for better or for worse, in a lot of these um, uh, uh, in a lot of these systems, and in the gallery system in particular, um, so, once you know the expectations, do what you want with that information. Um, and I think that, um, a lot of artists over the years have become more confident in forging their own path away from that system. Again, the Gen Zers are like. They're like why do you, why did you guys believe this stuff, like I don't know why this power dynamic exists, like why did you say yes to that? And it's like, oh God, right, should have looked at that a little more carefully. Um, so I guess working with so many artists has kind of made some of the holes really clear for me and what needs to be filled.
Nick Petrella:Sure Is your partner who's an attorney. Did he start out as an artist, visual artist or no?
Heather Bhandari:No, but it's interesting. His dad is a painter, like a hobby artist. I think something we have in common also that his dad is a hobby artist, makes great paintings, and I think he's he's a very creative person but sort of went down this path and that was that was law and business. And I also have a grandpa. I had a grandfather who was a hobby artist and, like, made lots of paintings in his basement and I think both of us just saw the potential in people in our lives to, and then for me I was also struggling with all this stuff myself. But but we saw the potential for people in our lives and we're like, why didn't they make that their plan A? Why wasn't? Why did it end up a hobby and not a career? And so we've both been really fascinated with that.
Nick Petrella:It's different timing. I can remember starting out as a musician People these people would be a lot older or even past by now just laughing at me how are you going to make a living doing that? And that's really. That comment is in the back of my mind every time I talk to a student and I'm saying no, you can make. If you're decent at anything, you're going to get money. Yeah, I really believe that.
Heather Bhandari:I think as you get older, yeah, to realize it's also persistence and just sticking around like which sounds so lame, but it's true, Like the longer you stick with it a lot of times, I mean it's how the traction happens. I am not I am definitely not a proponent of the starving artist and that's the way to be, and you have to be tortured to be a good artist. I don't believe in any of that, but I do believe in sticking around.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, and that goes into the conversation, as they weren't in the conversation that we were talking about earlier. They put the mental set it's a conspiracy, it's the financiers who are doing it. So, heather, what can you tell us about Creative Study and why did you decide to launch?
Heather Bhandari:Yeah, okay, so we were doing those conferences clearly not a good idea anymore and we started, so it's funny in like the 2019, it seems so long ago now, and it is, it does.
Heather Bhandari:Yeah, no, absolutely I agree, but people were like, oh, with all this education stuff you're doing, why don't you put it online? I was like, oh, that's a little weird, like I don't want to. Um, and uh, like, why would we record it and why would we like, like. And I was like, yeah, that's for the future. Like, maybe live streamings for the future and back then live streaming was also expensive Like, yeah, right.
Heather Bhandari:It was expensive to do these things, right? Um, and that was something we went into it. We're like, we're not going to do this halfway, we want to do it, right, um. So there were a lot of roadblocks to that. But then, all of a sudden, zoom happened. There was Skype before, but we didn't take it seriously. All of a sudden, everyone was online. So we're like, ok, we need to do some emergency. Forget about recording, we just need to do some emergency webinars for some people, because, as I'm sure you remember, everyone lost their jobs, didn't matter which arts you were in, losing jobs left and right, people didn't know what to do.
Heather Bhandari:And I remember there was one webinar. So we did a webinar on taxes because we're like, how on earth do you pay your taxes right now? Like, how do you, especially for freelancers who are paying quarterly, how are you supposed to estimate your next month, your next quarter's taxes? Like? So we started doing like a tax one. We did a couple of others that had to do with finance, because we realized a lot of the people in our community did not have three months of savings. Like didn't, right? So people were panicking. And then there was one that I did, that we did a webinar that was about housing and it was about the cancel rent movement in New York and how a lot of people were trying to get rent canceled for that period. About housing, and it was about the cancel rent movement in New York and how a lot of people were trying to get rent canceled for that period of time and it was a big movement.
Heather Bhandari:And those were the days I don't know if you guys remember where everyone still had their camera on. Like we have our cameras on. Everyone had their camera on and people were like raising their hand and doing whatever. This was the first Zoom I had been on where everyone had their camera on and people were like raising their hand and doing whatever. This was the first Zoom I had been on where everyone had their camera off. Now that's commonplace, but in 2020, like April-ish, may-ish, people still had their cameras on.
Heather Bhandari:So I was like, oh, there's a lot of shame here, like a lot of shame, a lot of scared, a lot of fear, a lot of, and so and I asked in the chat there were other people presenting, so I was one of the just an attendee sort of facilitating and I asked in the chat like, how many of you got MFAs, and pretty much everyone. And there were about 50 people on the call and almost everyone had an MFA and everyone on the call was housing insecure and I was like, oh, this is definitely not good. This is like worse than I could have imagined. So and I'm not saying that all MFA programs have not prepared people for the work, because some of them do a really good job, but I think in general, especially if you're over a certain age, the programs didn't exist, so, anyway. So Dexter and I were like, okay, what do we do about this?
Heather Bhandari:So we actually brought together a bunch of schools that are part of ACAD, the Association of Independent Colleges of Art and Design, and we asked them like, if we made something that had to do with business and financial health, that was, courses that you could use to help facilitate conversations around money, which I know everyone is uncomfortable with. It doesn't matter who you are and where you came from. Would you use them? And then we gave like a list of topics and had them rate them, and they said, yeah, make it. And ACAD actually helped us start.
Heather Bhandari:Um, so we, we, so we were very indebted to ACAD and that those original like brainstorming sessions, um, and then we just started making it and looking back I was like, how did? Why did we do? How did we do that in 2020? Like we were filming with masks behind glass, with like only one camera person, one sound person, me and Dexter, and we were hiding. We found a location where we could hide behind these glass doors and watch. It was just so intense. But now we have about 29 courses on the site and our business plan was that we decided we wanted these things to be available 24 seven, but we didn't want them to be recorded zooms, because we know no one has really capacity to watch those.
Heather Bhandari:We wanted them to be, like, professionally done and um, and available so that anyone teaching a professional practice class by the way, it doesn't have to be visual arts, like music theater anyone who is in the creative industry, whose income is going to be inconsistent, is pretty much who this is made for, um, anyone who works in freelance.
Heather Bhandari:We're not thinking about an Uber driver when we, when we make that made them, we're thinking about creative people. But, honestly, a lot of the, a lot of the subjects relate to a wide variety of people, um, so yeah, so we decided to to do that, to fill that need. Um, and we decided our subscribers. Although you can subscribe as an individual, monthly or yearly or whatever, um, we wanted it to be the institutions to take responsibility for some of this. So they subscribe and then they give it to their cohort for free. So whether it's students or alumni or residents like there are some artist residencies that have it, or New England Foundation for the Arts has been a subscriber, you know places like that who have given it out to their cohorts to try to facilitate conversation or just offer a resource. So it depends on the institution how they use it.
Nick Petrella:Sure.
Heather Bhandari:Yeah.
Andy Heise:And so you mentioned financial literacy and some of those other topics that you touch on with creative study, but are there a couple specific topics that you touch on with creative study, but are there are?
Heather Bhandari:there a couple specific topics that you focus on in creative study. We're focusing mainly on on personal finance and business finance, so, like there's a there's a budget budget module for personal budgeting but also business budgeting, so we give a couple of creative project sample budgets and things like that, like debt and credit, like really basic stuff that unfortunately, a lot of people don't have basic knowledge of the terminology. And I want to say we didn't go into this thinking this was going to be a magic bullet that was going to cure the creative, inconsistent income problem. No, but what we're hoping is that it creates foundational knowledge so that when somebody is invoicing someone else or deciding what their hourly rate is or their project rate, or deciding whether they're going to charge an hourly rate or a project rate, or they're going to I don't know, like try to do one, like have a vacation someday, like that, they understand the components to that. But also, if they ever need to talk to an accountant or a lawyer, they'll know the basic foundational vocabulary so that that very expensive hour potentially very expensive hour is used to its best capacity and they know what they're talking about.
Heather Bhandari:There's one course that schools asked us to do also, which was. It's about artist visas, quote unquote, the O-1 and EV-1 visas, because a lot of students are like, oh, I'm just going to get an O-1 visa, I'll just get an EV-1. And the schools are like it is not that simple, it is definitely not for you in most cases. There are some geniuses out there that can totally do that, but it's a process that takes many years. And so they're like can you make a video? Because we can't explain this to each student who comes to career services. But if we could show them the video and then be like now do you have questions, Now do you think you need a lawyer? So it's kind of like a building block to then be able to talk more adeptly with professionals.
Nick Petrella:It's so important. I mean, there was a module I do for a couple of my courses. One is on taxes and investing, like you're talking about, and in the middle of it there's always one or two people say, but wait a minute, I don't, these are, these are musicians, or really any artist, but this one example is a class of musicians. I don't make enough money to pay taxes and I'm just like, oh my God, what do you know? You can't do that.
Andy Heise:Anyway, there's so much mythology around all of this too, right yeah?
Heather Bhandari:Yeah, and then you have to explain. It's like okay, I mean I actually heard on your podcast several podcasts ago. I was listening, Something about you know how there are studies that have come out that are you know how little creative people make, like how very little visual artists make. Um, I mean, I have problems with some of those studies because a lot of income is not reported because of that exact thought, right, so when you're asking or figuring out from the IRS how much artists make, the actual numbers are real different than the reported numbers, Because they're like oh, this gig only made me $500. That one only made me $800. That one only so like. And then they paid to my Cash App or my Venmo, Like I'm not going to. So there's a lot of missing money and I understand why a hundred percent. But I also think when you want to buy a house or a car or whatever in the future, no one understands how that helps to report your income.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, so there were two things in that. So that was an interview, I think I I got off of CNBC. But in those snap studies, yeah, you can self-report and I think those are all anonymous and that's still fairly low.
Andy Heise:Yeah. Yeah it is yeah, and you know to your point, heather, that notion of personal finance and business finance for artists, they are one in the same. I mean they are different, they're separate. We need to keep them separate. Right, exactly, but you can't even begin to get your business finances in order if you don't understand how you're going to sustain yourself personally. Right, because, again, you can't separate the business from the individual. We keep the finances separate, but they're one in the same.
Heather Bhandari:And so many creative people fund their art with their personal, with other day jobs and things like that, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that, like that's actually the way that a lot of people make a lot of progress in their careers. But yeah, but understanding how and why and what you're doing is really important. Yeah.
Andy Heise:Yeah, yeah, and it's, it's, it's you know, it's I. I do the an example with my students of how you can be a successful quote, unquote successful business but not make any money. You know, and it has to do with cashflow and just understanding when the money comes in and when it goes out. It's just, it's a timing thing, and understanding how much you know.
Heather Bhandari:Exactly. I tell all my students I'm like I know you're not, you don't want to do this as the last thing on earth you want to do, but just to, even if you're not doing anything with it, to just track like how much money is coming in and out. Just keep a spread, just see, just even, like once a quarter or or like get into the habit, because then you see the trends over time. Right, it just helps so much with planning for business and plan like what jobs you can take or what jobs you have to take. So yeah, yes, yeah absolutely yeah.
Nick Petrella:So this next question is about sales. It's my unscientific conclusion that most in the arts, regardless of the genre, have a difficult time selling their art, and I'd say probably not printmakers, because I think they're the drummers of the visual art world, right? So that notwithstanding, why do you think that is? And if you had someone come to you with that issue of they have a difficult time speaking about their art, selling their art, how would you guide them?
Heather Bhandari:so this is definitely one of my number one reasons why people come to me or why I end up talking to people. Yeah, because people do want to sell. Like I have plenty of conversations about I don't want to sell my work. It's sort of it's for me, it's for the art, it's like I don't want to have anything to do with money, but because people know that I will talk about money, they end up coming to me when they want to sell it and they're frustrated Because people know that I will talk about money and they end up coming to me when they want to sell it and they're frustrated.
Heather Bhandari:So I do know a lot of people in that situation, and including printmakers, by the way Okay, yeah, I think it has a lot to do with perception of value in the world, in the United States I'll be specific to the United States Like I think that and I think this sort of bleeds over into all the other arts too it's so common for someone to say, oh, can you have this show and do this thing, or do this public project or this community project? There's no budget, but you'll get so much exposure.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, right, it's like that's the you'll get so much exposure. Yeah, right.
Heather Bhandari:It's like that's the drumbeat of the art world and I think that people really believe that that's a huge problem. People actually believe that they're like, oh, we're doing this artist a favor by letting them paint the outside of that school, because everyone's going to see the work. It's advertising, yeah, it's advertising, and you're like.
Heather Bhandari:Well, that because everyone's going to see the work. It's advertising. Yeah, it's advertising. And you're like, well, that artist isn't going to be an artist in five years if they just do everything for free. And then if someone finds out they did that mural for free, they're not going to pay them for the next mural either.
Heather Bhandari:They're going to pay them $200, which can't even cover the paint. It's like so, um. So I think I think one of the underlying reasons that I've done everything that I've done is to try to increase, like, people's perception of monetary value of art not just the product that they're making, but the creative process. Um, even back at mixed greens, which was again like a commercial gallery, we sold artwork online like way back before anyone else did, starting in like 99. Because we're like everyone should buy art, like every single person in the world. This was before. I mean, one of the only other online ways to buy art was called Next Monet. I don't know if it's still around. Honestly, it was called Next.
Nick Petrella:Monet. We'll have to look that up.
Heather Bhandari:It's super cheesy, but we had like a curated thing. Anyway, we're like every single person in the whole world should think that this is important, that they put art on their walls that's made by an artist and not by Ikea or whatever Ikea or whatever, and so, anyway. So I I guess my motivation for everything is like let's let everyone know that this is important, that artists are actually contributing to the world and their creative process is different, like all the art musicians, everyone. Like, the way your brains are working is different and it actually makes progress in our culture and in our world and in our in, in business and in everything, and it only it makes the world better. So I think that is a huge problem. But then the problem that they can control this is not. That's not a problem that they can necessarily control.
Heather Bhandari:Um, the problem they can control is, a lot of times, I think people feel like they're just going to be discovered, like, like it's the. If they make the good work, someone's going to find it and they're going to buy it, and that's not the way that it, unfortunately, works. It has worked like that for some people, um, over the years, but I think most people you can't. You can't be making music in your basement and expect people to like give you gigs Like you can't. You have to like, you have to put it. You have to put it out in the world so people can hear it and then they can do so. So I think it's the promotion part that's the huge problem for visual artists Because, again, we're taught like you have to do everything yourself and people will come.
Heather Bhandari:I think figuring out who your audience is, who who you're actually making the work for and who you want to have the work is incredibly difficult to do. And once you actually identify the like, who is actually paying attention to you, who cares about you, who could actually buy this work, and then who do I want to buy the work in the future? And figuring out a path to get then who do I want to buy the work in the future, and figuring out a path to get to the people you want to buy your work in the future. That's a lot of work. It's just as much work as making the work and then, once you gain traction, then it gets easier, I think, with time.
Heather Bhandari:But I think that's where I spend most of my time in teaching is having people, having younger art, having artists it doesn't matter how old you are. Having artists figure out, like who is actually paying attention to them and building their mailing lists and this is going to sound like such an old thing to say, but to be to be at the mercy of the Instagram algorithm is a pretty bad place to be, although it works really well for a lot of artists at this moment in time. But really the thing you have control over and the power you have is your own mailing list and like really keeping up with the people who care about you, who've shown interest in you, and growing the circle.
Nick Petrella:It's the difference between hunting and fishing for sales. Right, you put up your sign art for circle. Yeah, it's the difference between hunting and fishing for sales. Right, you put up your sign art for sale.
Heather Bhandari:Yeah, a hundred percent. I've never thought about it that way. That's a great way of thinking about it. Yeah.
Nick Petrella:Thank you.
Andy Heise:I had something I was going to say, but I forgot. Now I'm thinking about fishing.
Nick Petrella:You were going to send her your mixtape that you make in your basement.
Heather Bhandari:Oh yeah.
Nick Petrella:Oh yeah, that's right. It's like oh yeah, b-a-s-s-m-e-n-t mix.
Andy Heise:Exactly.
Heather Bhandari:I guess also with the hunting and fishing too, and thinking about that community and not being on your own. I also know a lot of artists who are very successful when they band together with other artists to do things like open studios. How do you get people who you don't know to actually know about you? Yes, you can use social media, but how do you grow your mailing list? Open studios with other people just doing lots of group exhibitions, bringing people into your world en masse with your friends.
Andy Heise:Yeah, exactly Creating that critical mass that maybe you can't do by yourself, but together, collectively, we might be able to make something happen here which is beneficial for everyone involved, right?
Nick Petrella:Yes, you said something that just clicked for me. So, because, whether it's a musician in a practice room 10,000 hours or an artist in their studio, right, you tend to be individualistic and it takes people who play chamber music or people who have that group mindset. That's why, when you go to a shopping center or an area, you'll see three home improvement stores, because they know where there's a critical mass, it will attract. And so, boy, if you can change that thought, that paradigm, that mental set, I think it would help everybody.
Heather Bhandari:I totally agree.
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