Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
#275: Tony Miceli (Jazz Vibraphonist) (pt. 2 of 2)
Today we release part two of our interview with Tony Miceli. He’s a jazz vibraphonist who has performed and taught all over the world. Under the umbrella of Miceli Music, LLC., he hosts the sites www.tonymiceli.com and www.vibesworkshop.com -- a virtual meeting place and teaching tool with 4,000 student and professional members. Tony is also the co-creator of the World Vibes Congress, a formal gathering of players who share the desire to bring public awareness to the vibraphone. If you want to get a glimpse into what it takes to be a successful working musician, you'll want to hear what Tony has to say! This interview is sponsored by @steveweissmusic
Hi everyone, Nick Petrella here. This episode is sponsored by Steve Weiss Music, percussion specialist since 1961. If you're looking for a rare piece of sheet music, a specialty gong or anything percussion, Steve Weiss Music will have it. Please visit steveweissmusic. com or click their link in the show notes. That's S-T-E-V-E-W-E-I-S-S music. com our percussion series.
Announcer:Sponsor. Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast. Making Art Work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. Any reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts Andy Heise and Nick.
Andy Heise:Petrella Hi Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners. I'm Andy Heise.
NIck Petrella:And I'm Nick Petrella. Tony Miceli is with us today. He's a jazz vibraphonist who has performed and taught all over the world. Under the umbrella of Maselli Music LLC, he hosts the sites Tony Miceli. com and VibesWorkshop. com, a virtual meeting place and teaching tool with 4,000 student and professional members. Tony is also the co-creator of the World Vibes Congress, a formal gathering of players who share the desire to bring public awareness to the vibraphone. His extensive portfolio career includes teaching positions at the University of the Arts, temple University and is a lecturer at the Curtis Institute of Music. We'll have his websites in the show notes so you can learn more about Tony, the vibraphone and more. Before we begin, I'd like to thank our friend Dan Sullivan for connecting us with Tony. Thanks for being on the podcast, tony.
Tony Miceli:Hey, it's great to be here. I'm looking forward to it.
Andy Heise:So when you're thinking about you know you started the website, you've started several different projects Are you thinking in your mind like what does the audience want? Who does the audience what? Who is the audience? What do they want? Or are you thinking about like, well, this is who I am, this is my artistic, you know expression. How do I go out and find an audience for that and then create the project based on that?
Tony Miceli:Well, I, I think everything. And when I was younger I was, I was kind of a jazz snob and I played with these musicians and all we would do is get together two, three times a week and play all night long. I'd get there at 9, and I'd be driving home at 6 am, so we would just go, go, go, and it was all about the music. And so I think part of me, everything I do, is so I can keep playing. I just want to play the vibes and hopefully one day I'm behind it, I just drop dead, like that's how that'll be complete for me. I don't want to not play it, you know, and have 10 years where I'm not playing the vibes, and so that's the impetus of everything to do. I knew when my dad gave me the money that I was going to make vibes workshop. I was going to record myself, put stuff up on YouTube and maybe people would see it, and they did so. But I also think and I think, since this is percussionists I can talk about mallets and answer your question. Sometimes I see my students playing and I go. I was in the audience. You use soft mallets. I couldn't hear you Get harder mallets. Oh, I love these mallets, I go, great, I'm glad you love those mallets. I wasted 15 bucks to come into this club to see you play and I couldn't hear you, and so that's so.
Tony Miceli:I do think about the audience. When I do a concert, I do think about what can I do? That's interesting, Hopefully with, without you know, without doing something that I think is silly or sure Ridiculous. Yeah, so I think we have to think about the audience if we want to make money right, because why, why should I, why should somebody come? I think that's it. We can be entitled. Sometimes musicians can be entitled and think I'm great, why isn't there anybody here? I'm thinking nobody wanted to come, nobody knew about it, or they heard your music and didn't like it. So what? What do you expect? You're great and we just come and listen to you, your music and didn't like it. So what do you expect? You're great and we just come and listen to you. Go, oh, you can't hear it. I was going to make noise.
NIck Petrella:Yeah, the compression you know with percussion too, when you're in a small practice room, you've got that wall right in front of you. You're only playing to three feet in front of you and it takes a real maturity to realize that. No, you're playing for 25 to maybe 50 yards away.
Tony Miceli:That's right and you know I always tell my students there's two sounds. There's the sound when you hit that you hear, and the sounds that goes out in the audience. And they're not the same sound. You might play with hard mallets and out in the audience the sound might be beautiful. So, yeah, that's important. And the audience the audience is important. You know.
Andy Heise:We have to consider them yeah, and I I love what you said at the very beginning. Like all the things you do is so you can play. Right, that's the, that's the end goal. Is that so that I can play?
Tony Miceli:That's all I wanted to do. I just wanted to do things to play. I didn't want to. For me, I felt like if, if I got well, my dad wanted me to get a teaching degree. And somebody said, well, the great thing about having a backup plan is you have a backup plan. And then he said the bad thing about having a backup plan is you have a backup plan. And then he said the bad thing about having a backup plan is you have a backup plan. So in one sense, I didn't want to have a backup plan. So when I got out, I had to play and had to figure out ways to play.
Tony Miceli:And I think if I would have had a backup plan, I would have done it, because two times in my life I was going to do something else. Like just things got so awful. I was so depressed that I was going to do something else. Like just things got so awful. I was so depressed that I was going to go. One time I was going to be. I went and took an insurance salesman test and I aced it. Like the guy brought me right in the room after I took the test and he said this job is made for you. And then he said to me he said you know, in two years you're going to be making a lot of money and you're not going to care about music anymore. And I just went and I just walked out of his office, so two times I was going to make a left turn.
Tony Miceli:Yeah, I just want to play. I get up every day, I practice 63, practice every day. And that's what I want to do. So the things I do, I want to help me play, for instance, the Weiss Festival. I do that every year and I do that for Steve Weiss. That's my primary reason, but I make sure I play in it every year. And somebody said to me well, you shouldn't play in it. I said, yeah, I should, I'm doing it. I want to play. Why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't I? It's not like I'm coming out of there making 75 000 for doing it. I'm going to play in it and I'm going to honor steve weiss.
Andy Heise:Yeah yeah, can I? Can I ask what the other left turn was that you almost made?
Tony Miceli:yeah, well, I was good, I was good with computers and when in 1982 my grandmother gave me money to buy a Mac 512K, so my whole day was practicing, sitting behind a computer and just learning stuff. I learned Pascal, learned BASIC, and then I learned Excel and I learned all the programs with a couple buddies of mine. And next thing I know from talking to guys in the bar, I was getting calls from people about how to do things in excel and this and that. And then I I saw an ad in the paper. They needed somebody to help do catalogs. And I knew page maker because I just learned it to make posters and things.
Tony Miceli:And I went out there and I I beat 26 people out who had degrees to do this and I was doing some part-time stuff for this guy's company making catalogs. So then I thought, well, maybe I'll head this way and I just kept no, and so I just used that when I was broke I went there and that lasted for a couple years and then it ended. Uh, it ended. So that was the other time, because I do love computers, I love programming, I love it.
Andy Heise:I'm not good at it, but I love it yeah, and it got to keep you playing it got to keep me playing, right, yeah when you're approaching new projects and you uh a partner or collaborator. What do you look for in that collaborator? Is it something new and novel that they're doing, or is it just about? Would this person be fun to work with?
Tony Miceli:Yeah, I just think you work with people. You work with people and you're sitting on a break talking with that person and next thing you know you're emailing that person and then you have a project. I have a project I did with a buddy of mine, dan Monaghan, who's a fabulous, fabulous drummer here in Philadelphia, and we did a gig where we took all the Django tunes and all this stuff from Paris and we kind of what do they call it? Reimagined it. We reimagined it. And then there's this great, great guitar player legend. His name is Vic Joris, great guy. He died a few years ago and we did a gig with Vic and Vic's kind of a star like he was. He gave Paul, he was giving Paul Simon guitar lessons. So he he's, he's like a, he's incredible, um, and then we did the gig and at the end of the gig Vic said, boy, we should record this. I looked at Dan he's my buddy and Dan said yes, and so then we re, we recorded it. Um, so that's how those things, things start.
Tony Miceli:And then, incidentally, that sat for a couple of years. I pulled it back out, I started writing to record labels because I didn't want to put it out myself, and then I wrote to a really good jazz label that Vic was on called Steeplechase, and I said of course, you know Vic's gone. I have this CD. It might be one of the last things he did, if not the last thing he did. So four years later he writes me back and says yes, let's put it out. So that just sat. So that's the other thing with projects. Yeah right, they sit there and then you go whoa, let's bring this one out. But you just make friends. I have a longtime collaboration with a violinist, diane Monroe. We just hit it off. She's like my sister. And violinist Diane Monroe, we just hit it off. She's like my sister and we've played together for about 20 years now just vibes and violin, and we love each other and she's incredible and just yeah.
Andy Heise:That's good so you have those relationships and then you begin to imagine, hey, how might we be able to create something?
Tony Miceli:Yes, and the important part is you have these relationships Right. So you have to figure out how to get along with people. And I had to figure it out because I don't think I was very good at getting along with people. You know two wives, a long-term girlfriend they all kicked me out. So I don't think I'm very good at getting along with people. But I really try hard now and I see people recognize that and I apologize. That's the other thing I learned After years of couple therapy say I'm sorry, so I can call somebody up and say, hey, that was not cool what I said last night and that goes a long way. So yeah, it's all about relationships. I think. Sure, that's great.
NIck Petrella:So, Tony, I visited the vibes workshop site and there's a lot of great information on there which you might describing the business model, and I mean I assume it's a subscription model- yes.
Tony Miceli:So it's a, it's a subscription model and what I wanted to do was make a community. You know, back when I don't think people were, you know, 13, 14 years ago and I wanted to make a community for Vibe players and so I built it. I was spending about 8 to 12 hours a day on it. I remember I had the first person who signed up His username is Barry K and so every day I made a. I remember I had the first person who signed up his username is Barry K and so every day I made a lesson so I wouldn't lose Barry K, because I thought, if I lose Barry K, then there's nobody. And so he was there alone for about three months. Then it was the second person and we just started putting up lessons.
Tony Miceli:And then I decided early on that if you were a pro like when I saw Gary Burton he was paying for the membership. So he was paying. At the time it was $19.99 a month. I wrote to him. I said I know you have the money. I said but you're Gary Burton, you can't pay, I'll just let you on, and he was fine.
Tony Miceli:So when these guys would come on, I'd see them. When I saw Mike Manieri, come on. I was like, hey, mike, you can just have full access and Terry Gibbs. So those guys came on at the time and they were talking, but Gary Burton was writing long posts about things and doing it. So I opened it up to the pros in the beginning and we had lessons and then people just start talking and now there's probably over 20-something thousand posts about the vibraphone and it's got to be. We're probably at 2,500 lessons about the vibraphone. We have a huge, we call it the virtual book and there's just not even all the lessons are in there. But there's probably 1500 lessons in there, categorized and, yeah, and the people came and it was great, it plateaued and now it's dipped a little bit. So I have to get back into hustling and putting the word out.
NIck Petrella:Well, that was really smart. I mean because they became your brand ambassadors. Yes, they did they?
Tony Miceli:they did and they were sending their students, um, and all that. And I know now that sometimes teachers come on there and print out things. I know a great five player that just did a workshop and she was on Vibe's workshop. She printed out just five days' worth of material to do in a workshop. So that's kind of cool for me to realize that there's enough information on there for somebody to go to, for teachers to use it, and then hopefully they tell their students to sign up and pay for the site. Just don't take the information and do it and not mention the site. So yeah, yeah over your career.
Andy Heise:What have been some of the most significant changes in the music industry or in the in the jazz world that you're particularly involved in? Uh, that have maybe impacted you for better, for worse.
Tony Miceli:Well, I think that the first big change was technology. So I remember getting I think it was the first sequencer on the Mac. It was called Total Music and then I bought a drum machine and then I started buying synthesizers. And then somebody I used to be in all the arts councils in this area and one of them paid me to go around and do workshops to show teachers and musicians these instruments. That's cool. So that was a big. I knew that was a big change coming and I remember the first time that was a big. I knew that was a big change coming and I remember the first time and I got yelled at many times by people saying why are you here with this instrument?
Tony Miceli:You're taking work away from me. And a drummer said that to me one time. He says why are you sitting here telling me about this drum machine when you're going to take work away from me? I said, first of all, I'm not going to take work away from you because I'm not out there doing stuff in studios. And I said, secondly, if you learn how to program the damn machine, you'll have work.
Tony Miceli:You know this is work. This is like drawing pictures in the 1800s of the buildings on fire for the newspaper and then there's this daguerreotype comes out. You know, yeah, right, right, and it replaces you. When it comes to business, when it comes to that, we're we're going to be replaced time and time again, but we just it's like the ai thing yeah, oh, it's going to replace me. No, learn how to use it and you'll do it. So that was the first thing. Um, I think what came next, because of technology, was people not being out as much, and so I watched jazz clubs and places to play, kind of go away or change. You know, I just remembered that early on when I saw a big tv in this place, I was playing and sports was on. They were playing sports games. I thought, oh, and everybody was looking that way. I thought, oh, this is, this is going to be a problem uh, so realize what your competition is yeah, yeah, yes, so.
Tony Miceli:So the question is how do you, how do you keep people interested? How do you get people to turn this way? It's really hard with now, you know four tvs in a club and you're in the corner, yeah, so, and then I think, um, uh, well, you know what? The other big change is age, because as you get older, everything changes. You know I I just remember being midlife sitting in with a bunch of musicians and talking and saying something you know off color, and all these guys looking at me like you're my dad, what did you just say? And going, oh, there's a difference between us. And so that's grown over the years.
Tony Miceli:9-11 changed everything. And the internet that was huge, that's technology, but that really changed everything. And I'm glad I learned how to do it, because I watched some of my friends not know how to do it, sure, and suffer because of it. And then when COVID hit, they bottomed out Like I just saw musicians, boom, you know, and luckily they got the money each week and could hang on, but without technology. People were calling me wanting to learn how to do Zoom calls, yeah, and then they were doing it like on their phone, giving lessons, and the students wouldn't stay because it sounded horrible and by the time covid hit, I had done online lessons since 2008 or something, whenever skype came around right, that's right. So I knew how to make it a little better, because Skype was horrible.
Tony Miceli:And, incidentally, I wrote to Skype. My son works for Google. I wrote to Google and I said fix the audio, let me downgrade the video and upgrade the audio. You will make money off of musicians because we can all teach online then. And Skype wrote me back and said no, their focus is on voice and business meetings. And Google told my son no, we're not interested in this. You know, because he gave him a letter and checked in.
Tony Miceli:And then COVID hits. And then Google says we have three months to up our game with our video end. And everybody does it. And Zoom comes along and did exactly what we all needed Yep. And then everybody's online with a mic and audio interface. And now we're making money teaching people online and figuring out how to do it and having the computer up and putting things in logic, quantizing it, printing the sheet out, emailing it to somebody in four minutes yep. Then saying this is your sight reading exercise, read this back to me. So it's kind of cool to me. Technology, I think, helps us. It doesn't hurt us if you go with it. Yeah, yeah.
NIck Petrella:In terms of market size. The jazz idiom is one of the smallest in music. It may be the smallest. Do you see that growing in the future, and what should young jazz enthusiasts be doing to promote that art form?
Tony Miceli:Well, no, you know, even talking, there's a great saxophonist named Dave Liebman and he just says jazz was always jazz. I mean, it was just a small part of the market. And then he talks about, uh, what was it called? The five spot, where the loneliest monk used to play and there'd be lines around the corner. But he said this was a really this was a small club. So you think, like there's a thousand people inside and there wasn't. So I think, I think it's always been small, maybe somebody I see some of these charismatic players come along, uh and do things and I think, okay, maybe maybe it'll boost it up a little bit. But I do think, even if it's small, even if it's the smallest, I think it will always be there, because the musicians I think play jazz do it for just one reason they do it to play jazz and they want to play jazz and in a way, jazz musicians are entrepreneurs and their get back isn't necessarily money, it's getting to play the music and they have to make a living. So I think it's. I don't think it's going to go anywhere, but we have to. We have to really work hard to keep it the lowest thing, like just to keep it the smallest market in music. We have to work really hard to keep it there right and not andxistent. And so, I don't know, maybe somebody's going to come along that'll change it. I mean, guys like Wynton, marsalis and all that. I think they bumped it up a little bit and then the big bands come back for a little while and all that.
Tony Miceli:I always tell my students that no matter what you do, if you're going to use music you have to make an event and you need two things to have an event. You know, a concert is a concert, it's in a hall, but if you're going to play in a club, the two things are music and booze and food. If you're going to play outside, then the two things can be outside and it it's a beautiful day and this is a beautiful setting. Outside it's lunchtime, you're in front of a building in a park and everybody comes out to eat lunch. But we kind of need you always have to think about that that second thing to make it an event.
Tony Miceli:And if we can, you can make it an event, as we know from hippies. You know, you bring in, you bring in kool-aid and put acid in it. Everybody comes out. Now we have an event, as we know from hippies. You know, you bring in, you bring in kool-aid and put acid in it. Everybody comes out. Now we have an event and it grows and it becomes this thing now I'm don't do the kool-aid thing.
NIck Petrella:Yeah, I just want to make make it clear that that was not a suggestion no, that was an example yeah, and a historical example a historical example say no to drugs.
Tony Miceli:the only thing that'll happen you'll be 50 years old and you'll look back and then be like, why, why did I get involved with that stuff? So, uh, but yeah, so I. I think it's difficult and I think it is the smallest market and yet we still go out there and do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andy Heise:Tony, we've reached the part of the interview where we ask all of our interviewees the same three questions, and the first question is what advice would you give to others wanting to become an entrepreneur?
Tony Miceli:An entrepreneur in music or just an entrepreneur?
Andy Heise:Yeah, so yeah, entrepreneur in the arts, yeah.
Tony Miceli:I think I hope they have a desire to play. I mean, there's people that are just entrepreneurs and they're just in music to make money, and I get it. It's a little difficult to deal with those people because their thing is money, so their thing is, how much money can I take from you? But I hope you love what you do and then you just have to seek opportunities. I think just an entrepreneur is somebody that's out, that's looking at everything. I think just an entrepreneur is somebody that's out, that's looking at everything.
Tony Miceli:I think somebody called me an opportunist once and they said it in a negative way and I said I'm a vibe player. Of course I'm an opportunist. I look at everything and I think, oh well, I could turn that way, we could play there. You know, my sister just bought a, bought a coffee shop, just a coffee shop, and I it's like I want to. Bought a coffee shop, just a coffee shop, and I it's like I want to see this coffee shop. Maybe I could get a bass player to come down and play. Yeah, I don't care where I'm playing.
Tony Miceli:But back to your question. No, that is, that is great. Yeah, you have to look out and see the world and see where you can fit in and be an opportunist, look for opportunities and then hopefully play great music for people, of whatever kind of music you're playing. And then you have to figure out how to get some money back out of it so that you can survive and you can make it into a business. And it's interesting to see all these people that do, and it's interesting to know that for every casey cangelosi there's probably a hundred people.
Tony Miceli:Yeah, that it didn't happen, and that's not to discourage you, that's just to say you better. I mean, I think of casey as an entrepreneur and a mofo on the, on the, in the percussion, on the percussion instruments. Just unbelievable. Warren Wolf, I mean, he's unbelievable. You watch him play, whether you're a non-musician or a musician, and you just go oh my God, yeah. So I think if you have a lot of those qualities, you don't have to be Warren Wolf, but you just have to have that desire, love for music, want to play and win-win I think is important, yeah, and play great music, yeah.
Andy Heise:Is that a that's great? No, that's amazing. Yep Thanks.
NIck Petrella:What can we do to ensure the arts are more accessible and reaching the widest possible audience?
Tony Miceli:and reaching the widest possible audience. Well, it's interesting because you say that, because one thing that's not on my resume and you talk about relationships. I had a friend when I was a teenager and for reasons, she moved in with my family for a few years and we became best friends then and we became best friends throughout our lives. We would in the our lives. We would in the beginning we would get in touch every five or ten years. Right, I would get a photo back, a picture from her back in the day, and there she is with Mick Jagger. I would get another picture and there she is getting off the Doobie Brothers plane, and so she was a concert promoter. Then she goes into business and I talked to her what are you doing? I'm in business, she told me, telecom. I didn't know. And we keep in touch over the years and she comes to me and she's talking to me one day and I realize, oh my God, she has made a fortune. And she says I want to start a nonprofit and I want to go back to music. So her base is in costa rica. It's called global academy of inspirational arts and she asked me to join it with her. So she she's going to put money into music around the world, but the center is going to be in costa rica where she's going to have a school, a studio.
Tony Miceli:So I think there's those ways to help the arts. You know, I always thought, well, it's kind of government's job to kind of help the arts, because we're in the cities. You know, these theaters are in the cities. But I think everybody has to help the arts and I think we have to not lose sight of quality. And if you bring quality to something, I think know a really, really great musician seems to work, no matter what a piano player. You know these great guys. So I think if we bring quality, what we do and yes, I get it dressed nice, look good, yes, all that stuff be charismatic, yes, I think that'll help help because there will always be people interested in, like I call it, the glassblower syndrome. You know, you see a glassblower, there's always 10 people sitting there watching a good, because it's like, wow, oh my God, look what he just made. So I think if you're out there and you're a great musician, somebody's out there going oh my God, listen to this. This is incredible and I think that's what keeps it going.
Tony Miceli:I was going to say more so, but that's pop music. For me that's a whole different thing. But I think the arts people want to see. What's her name, the pianist that just played Flight of the Bumblebee, ying Yang Yu Zhuang? I forget it, but nobody gets to that video and passes by it. Nobody gets to her playing Flight of the Bumblebee and just goes next. I don't care if you know nothing about music, you just go. What what's going on there?
Andy Heise:I think those are the things that help keep it going yeah, lastly, what's the best artistic or entrepreneurial advice you've ever received?
Tony Miceli:uh, what's the best artistic advice? Well, I think it was boy. That is tough Because to me it was this guitar player I played with when I was young for years. It's like he was like a guru and I was like a you know disciple back then. But he just said always put the music first. He said always you can't sacrifice for that. And that stayed with me because if it wasn't for him I don't think I would have been competent enough to do the things I did.
Tony Miceli:Who knows if I'm great or not. There's plenty of people that probably think I stink and there's probably people that think I play good. But he just taught me the music is always first, and that's what I did, and then everything kind of centered around that. So I think that for me that was good advice to be an entrepreneur, to just not not lose sight of the product. It's like you know you buy stuff off Tik TOK now and it comes to your house and it looked really cool, and then you get it and you go this is a piece of crap, what the? I don't want to be that. I don't want to be that person making, making garbage and somehow making a lot of money off it. I want to be the person. Well, if, if I have to be, I am the person, not making tons of money off of it, but always trying to do a great job.
NIck Petrella:Yeah, yeah, that's great. Well, thanks so much for coming on. It's it's great to hear your story and I really like your tenacity to hustle. I think that's a great point.
Tony Miceli:Well, this was great A great experience, great questions and I had a great time. Thanks, tony Yep.
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