Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
#285: Heather Bhandari (CreativeStudy Co-Founder; Art/Work Co-Author) (pt. 2 of 2)
This week on the podcast is part two of our interview with Heather Bhandari. She’s the Co-Founder of CreativeStudy: an online business and financial health education platform for creatives. Heather is also an independent curator and writer; a co-founder of the project-based curatorial team and podcast, The RStyemix; and an adjunct lecturer at Brown University where she teaches professional practice to artists.She received a BA from Brown University and an MFA from Penn State University.
If you enjoy Heather's book Art/Work, you won't want to miss these episodes as we touch on a variety of topics from the book and beyond! https://heatherbhandari.com/; https://creativestudy.com/; https://theremix.nyc/
Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast. Making art work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts Andy Heiss and Nick Petrella.
Andy Heise:Hi podcast listeners. My name is Andy Heiss and.
Nick Petrella:I'm Nick Petrella. Heather Bhandari is on the podcast today. She's the co-founder of Creative Study, an online business and financial health education platform for creatives. Heather is also an independent curator and writer, a co-founder of the project-based curatorial team and podcast the Remix, and an adjunct lecturer at Brown University, where she teaches professional practice to artists. She received a BA from Brown University and an MFA from Penn State University. I pared down her lengthy bio for time, so you should definitely visit her links in the show notes so you can appreciate Heather's breadth and depth of experience. Heather, thanks so much for being on the podcast.
Heather Bhandari:Thank you, Nick, for having me. Thanks, Andy.
Andy Heise:Yeah, and Heather, you kind of already, nick, for having me. Thanks, andy, yeah, and Heather, you kind of already. I think you just talked about this. But in your professional practice course at Brown, what's the main thing that you hope your students take away from that professional practice course and how do you approach preparing them for you know, life after art school?
Heather Bhandari:Yeah, I mean, I hope and I don't know if I'm successful all the time with every student on this, but I know some of them the artists have a better idea of what they want from a career in the arts. I don't talk about how to make your art better or how to make your music better, because I have a lot of interdisciplinary students how to make your performances better. That's not what we talk about. But we talk about that thing that I yeah, that I just mentioned. Like who's already paying attention that you're taking for granted? Who and who do, who are you actually making it for? So then, like that should guide you as to what venues you're pursuing, what grants or residencies you're pursuing, how you're selling your work, if you're selling your work, if you're selling your work. So that's another thing.
Heather Bhandari:Like we talk about a lot of students come in assuming a gallery trajectory or some sort of sales trajectory and I'm like there are a lot of successful my air quotes. Like everyone looks at them and like that's such a successful artist and you're like, yeah, well, they haven't sold anything in 10 years. Like no one knows that Right, because they figured out another way. They teach, they get grants, they do residencies that also give them money they do.
Heather Bhandari:There's all kinds of other things that they're doing. Some of them have benefactors, some of them have sponsorships of some sort, have benefactors, some of them have sponsorships of some sort. So I sort of I try to open up that world and be like okay, there there are these obvious tracks and for a couple of you that's going to be exactly what you want to do, but for the majority of you it is not what you're going to want to do. And like how do you make it work? And how do you not get totally overwhelmed and disappointed when you figure out that path that was so clear is not the path you're going to take? So we try to like get ahead of it so they don't graduate and then have the brick wall hit them Right.
Andy Heise:Exactly.
Heather Bhandari:Yeah, um, so I try to. I try to make it as as personal as possible with each of the students in the class. So there's again, no one size fits all.
Andy Heise:Right, absolutely.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, so, Heather, the second edition of your book Artwork was published by Simon Schuster in 2017. What's it about and why should a developing artist get it?
Heather Bhandari:So I'm actually doing some updates to it right now, but it won't be publicized that there are updates. But I need to change a couple things. It is sort of a basic professional practice for visual artists so that, while creative study can be for all, because it's more about finance, it can be more widely applicable to creatives. This one was definitely made with visual artists in mind. It talks about some of the things we've talked about now, like um, just figuring out what what you want actually is. The whole beginning of the book, like what do you actually want? And then it guides you through. I mean, there's a chapter, there's some nitty gritty things like how do you actually submit work in it? Your best foot forward, using the sort of standard ways of submitting work these days, which that's where I have to update little things, because those kinds of things do change over time. Change, yeah, unfortunately, not so much has changed in the visual arts since 2017. There should be a new book like that's what I wish. I wish someone else would write a new book, but um, because I don't know of any other books that are sort of addressing the same things. I'm doing the little tweaks so that people don't um do the wrong thing. But um, but it there's nitty-gritty. I'm like, how do you apply for something? How do you?
Heather Bhandari:Chapter nine is my favorite chapter because it's about actually packing and shipping your work, because that's one of my absolute pet peeves when someone shows up to a show and their work is in a garbage bag, because I'm like how do you think it's going to get treated if you showed up when it's in a garbage bag, like you know so, or if someone actually does buy your work after you've tried so like we've go through marketing, we go through grants and residencies, we go through all these things. Someone actually buys your work. You're making money and it arrives damaged and you have to give the money back, or you don't have insurance. So we talk through all those sort of basics.
Heather Bhandari:Um, with the idea in mind that these are going to, all these tips and tricks will work for, like, a certain segment of the visual arts population and hopefully, if you're a visual artist and you're not exactly sure which path you're going to take, you can sort of read it and figure out. It is not meant to be read as a novel, like cover to cover. It's sort of like what you use it when you need it. There are consignment forms in there.
Nick Petrella:There's like represent sample, representation agreement, things like that that's great and that's funny, that so the utilitarian aspect that's come up before I'd say what, three or four times on the podcast, don't you think? What do you? What do you mean as far as shipping, shipping items, oh yeah yeah, you know, alex fark is like does he, he said he has some really nice packages and stuff.
Andy Heise:He got tired of dealing with it, so he just sends, he has his own.
Nick Petrella:yeah, because the times suck. Even if you have insurance, you have to take care of it, and when you're doing that, you're not doing something else. It's bringing money in Yep.
Heather Bhandari:You know, I found that to be super interesting. I make their own content, like their own boxes that are with the three layers of foam and the whatever. That's super smart because it's true, Most, most people, most artists, can't afford an art, fine art shipper for just any basic sale, any basic show. So you really have to know how to do this. You should patent the or I don't know if that's the right word, but you should. You should make it widely available for artists to buy the boxes. That could be another income stream.
Andy Heise:Yeah, absolutely yeah, and I I you know highly recommend the book artwork that was. I have it, I think I have a copy just right over there and I reference it frequently and and and recommend it to a lot of my students and artists that I work with.
Nick Petrella:Thanks, I'm holding out for a signed copy of the updated version.
Heather Bhandari:I can make that happen.
Nick Petrella:You might be able to make that happen soon. I'm kidding, all right.
Andy Heise:So we talked a little bit about Snap and some of the data that's out there on, you know, at least arts alumni. You know I've been thinking about this. One of my issues but it's not issues but one of the problems with Snap is it's only artists who have gone to college, Right, so it kind of excludes a whole separate group of artists separate group of artists. But anyways, the SNAP surveys in terms of how are we doing in education in the arts and what are artists doing, it's kind of the best data set that we have over a pretty long period of time at this point and it consistently shows that there are gaps between what we're teaching and what artists actually need in their careers or making a living in the arts. And we've seen a lot of programs emerge from that recognition of the gap. But yet, you know, the latest data still shows us there's still gaps. And so what are we missing? What do you think we're not doing right in these programs, or maybe even doing wrong in these programs that we need to pay attention to?
Heather Bhandari:Yeah, I mean, I love snap and I love everyone involved in that group and I do think I know that they're thinking about that a lot, like all the people that are being missed, but the, the science, like the statisticians and stuff behind it I think are. So it's amazing to me, yeah, and I and I use that data all the time, but, um, anyway, uh, what, what are we doing wrong? So, back when I said I very indebted to ACAD for, um, you know, helping creative study actually get off the ground, um, by giving the confidence and a little bit of money to make the first video, um, they of Deborah Obolo is the woman who runs ACAD. She was quite frank with me actually at the beginning and said I hope that we can put you out of business. Like I hope that this is. She was part of one of our conferences and she's like I really don't want you to exist, like not me personally as a human, but like anything that I've done Right, Like we don't.
Heather Bhandari:I, my goal and ACAD's goal is to not need places like creative study or the like. We need to. We need to do a better job. But I think, again, a lot of these schools are doing a much better job than they were in the past. I think they're trying really hard. I honestly, after doing this for a while, I do think one of the issues is there are certain schools who still refuse to acknowledge that this is important. They just do. And there are a couple of schools that we approached about a creative studies subscription that actually said things like well, our students are anti-capitalist. And I was like well, so am I?
Andy Heise:in theory, like, but I that's my favorite argument, by the way, I've heard that one.
Heather Bhandari:Our students are anti-capitalist and I'm like well, but we live in a capitalist system and like we need to like work, or and there we need to like work and there are, which is why creative study has an entire section on the solidarity economy which is free for everyone to look at, because artists do function in multiple systems and we don't necessarily acknowledge it that there's a lot of mutual aid going on in the arts.
Heather Bhandari:That is part of how we all survive and thrive, so we have to acknowledge that as actually being an economic system. It just doesn't involve money, right. So there's that. But I would say for most of us I'll speak for myself I have to pay my rent and buy my food, and my kids have to do things, so I need money for those things, so I have to figure out how to balance all those worlds, anyway. So the fact that schools would say our students are anti-capitalist, so we can't subscribe to something like this is crazy to me. I know there are some schools that have had professional practice programs but really not really funded them very well, made them, you know, very just sort of hidden them lip service.
Andy Heise:Check the box.
Heather Bhandari:So I think schools need to actually acknowledge that this is super important and, again, a lot of them have, but some of them still have not. The other thing is I mean, you guys deal with students. It's like students also need to hear something a lot of times before, or young people maybe? Let's not even talk about students sure and someone in.
Heather Bhandari:I think, even though the dialogue is changing, the terminology is changing. I think that a lot of young people that are in choose creative professions because they're like, oh, I'm not gonna have to do that money stuff and I'm not good at the money stuff. And it's like, no, actually you, I'm not good at the money stuff and it's like, no, actually you're probably really good at the money stuff and you're probably really good at the number stuff. You're just not acknowledging that part of yourself, because I think creative people are the best problem solvers and a lot of business and financial stuff is problem solving actually in the end. So I think just the mindset around, like what makes a creative person, needs to kind of change.
Heather Bhandari:But the thing that I try to stress with creative study and I've already kind of said it in the podcast so far is that it's like building blocks, foundational, like getting the vocabulary out to young creatives, young artists, as soon as possible, maybe even in elementary school and high school, like so that they understand that's just part of life, it not like a separate thing that, um, they don't have to deal with.
Heather Bhandari:Uh, I think it's like a mind, a mindset problem, um, because okay. So I'll be really honest about something. Creative study is a platform that they're, you know, schools are subscribing to and they're like what if people figure out how to hack into our subscription? What if a student gives out 10 free seats to their friends? And I'm like that is not going to be a problem for you Because, as you guys know, when you start talking business and financial health and entrepreneurship to most young creatives, that is not like hot information that they're going to be sharing on TikTok. So it's not, it's not really a problem. Like you have to give it to them in all different ways over a long period of time and like the earlier the better, yeah.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, we should start a push for art stands instead of lemonade stands for the little kids. That would solve it. Give everybody a participation award for the number of pieces of art that is sold.
Heather Bhandari:I will say a couple of artists that I've worked with over the years that I represented at Mixed Screens. Their kids have tried to sell me work as like elementary school kids, like when you're at a younger age, you kind of you kind of got it, you got like income streams might be we were, we were, we were at this little street fair recently and it was um.
Andy Heise:You know, there's like a tattoo shop and out front of the tattoo shop there was this little girl selling temporary tattoos to other little kids. It was the cutest, most amazing idea I've ever. I'd never seen that before. I was like that is an awesome idea that's amazing, but again, probably I didn't ask, but probably her. You know somebody she knew was owned the tattoo shop or was a tattoo artist or whatever, and yeah, so heather, did you buy the art from the little kid or did you describe?
Heather Bhandari:why they weren't doing the right approach no, I did buy art from like a couple of elementary school kids so you're gonna have to sign this form first.
Andy Heise:You're gonna fill up this paperwork and that's right.
Heather Bhandari:I haven't resold it.
Heather Bhandari:I have not put it on the secondary market, so I'm not in their market yeah yeah, but I've also had I had, uh, kids ask if I could put their art, like when I was working in galleries, like put their art near my computer so that people would see it, so they could also say that they had shown at the gallery and stuff. It's very funny like which kids will latch on to that kind of stuff and all that is to say. By the way, I love artists who also do not sell their work and do make money in different ways and do have like a different sort of funding stream behind what they're doing.
Nick Petrella:I'm open to all of it. So we were talking earlier. You were the director of exhibitions at Smack Mellon, a nonprofit exhibitionist studio space in Brooklyn that's designed to nurture and support emerging and mid-career artists. What kind of support do most emerging artists need?
Heather Bhandari:So I think at a place like that, Smack Mellon has the most incredible space. It's very, very high ceilings. It's like this concrete. It's very specific. It's a very incredible space. It's very, very high ceilings. It's like this concrete. It's very specific. It's a very specific space. Anyone who hasn't been to it and comes to New York, to Brooklyn, should come see it. It's a really incredible space.
Heather Bhandari:So I think something we got to offer there that I couldn't have ever offered at McScreens was like a very unique site-specific situation that someone could do something actually with sound, with performance, with visual art. It was a very flexible space to but very specific. So artists did things that were out of their comfort zone there and I think it was a safe space to do things that were out of their comfort zone. So, if we're not, this was a nonprofit. The monetary reward from doing something there was not immediate, so it was more exposure that you did something new there and hopefully people were coming and paying attention and then offering you exhibitions or whatever elsewhere.
Heather Bhandari:This place, its purpose, was a place where you could take risks and be really supported, both like mentally and like rah rah. You can do it, and also there were stipends and things like that, and we helped artists also raise money to um to do the projects there. But, um, I think that's one thing you need. You need support in all different ways, Um, and one of them is being offered space and time. Um, and also also this education like what do you do with the space and time if you get it, so that you make, you can make the most of it.
Andy Heise:Yeah.
Andy Heise:Yeah the most of it. Yeah, yeah. So something I think about a lot and we've we've talked about this a little bit so far in the podcast is this balance of, you know, uh, teaching business theory, like how things work, versus practical things like taxes and bookkeeping and those sorts of things. And you know, and when we're working with artists in professional development situations or in classes at schools or whatever, balancing that theoretical and the practical is often difficult, based on their level of experience, their level of intentionality maybe. Anyways, it's something I think about and I'm constantly juggling, and you know, this is the time of the year where I'm going through all of my student evaluations for the programs and for the courses and on the one hand, they're like, well, andy didn't actually make us do anything, all he did was talk about, and on the other hand, it's like, well, he made me show up to this thing and do this thing, and so it's. You know, it's constantly a balance for me. Anyways, what's?
Heather Bhandari:your what's your approach to that? Or thoughts on on on how to, how to balance those things. Oh gosh, um, I, and it's like I try to be really personal with these students but there's always it's brought up the evaluations there's always something that I'm like wait, what Cause? One year the student was like we didn't. We never talked about marketing I thought this class talked about. I was like you build a website. We talked about your mailing list, but I never used the word marketing.
Heather Bhandari:So that actually taught me to use the business terms to talk, even though it's uncomfortable for a lot of artists and they tend to like bristle when you say those sorts of words. But if you don't clearly say them, they don't know that that's what they're already doing. And it's like guys, you're already doing a lot of things, you just don't know you're doing it and you're not doing it with intentionality. So I think we do in my class we tend to do more of the the like practical, like what do you need to get? What do you have control over right now, today, as a 20 year old or 21 year old, and like let's get that under control. But then I do try to weave in some of like the bigger concepts that are over.
Heather Bhandari:But again, if I'm not really specific, I I sometimes lose them on it. So that's a struggle that I have to the same same struggle.
Andy Heise:Yeah.
Heather Bhandari:Yeah.
Andy Heise:Yeah, I think it comes back to that sort of the, the mythology around this business thing or like making what it means to be a quote unquote successful artist or make a living as an artist. There's so much mythology around it and then, but again, I think that you know where I find. It's like the students that don't have a clear direction or something that they want to do or a place that they want to go, or think. You know, whatever it is, those are the ones I find that I lose the most quickly.
Heather Bhandari:Yeah.
Andy Heise:And have a hard time bringing them back in the fold.
Heather Bhandari:Which is why I think I do a lot of goal-setting stuff at the beginning and a lot of the stuff that makes them really uncomfortable and they hate it Because it's like, oh, there's going to be 10 minutes of silence where you're just going to write about X, y or Z and they're like, oh God, and I'm like what did you write? And I'm like what did you write? So we, yes, so I try to make them at least hone in on a direction, something study platform, like why do artists need to know about economics? Her name is Amy Whitaker and she wrote a book called Art Thinking and in Art Thinking. So what I do with the students who don't they're like I have no idea is she talks more in terms of a light instead of setting specific goals. What's your lighthouse? Question, like what are you actually trying to? Like where's your, your direction? Like where's's the lighthouse? If you can't think of like what's the 10 goals you have? Like where's the lighthouse? Okay, so let's just, so now we can block away all the others and now at least you have a direction right. So we're trying to try to do that with them too, and amy also. She, it's a great book, for the students tend to either love it or hate it. It's kind of interesting, but I think it clicks with them.
Heather Bhandari:Like I've had people who have graduated and been like ah, I went back to art thinking and so she also talks about like economic terms, like efficiencies, like in business.
Heather Bhandari:You're trying to always figure out the efficiencies and sometimes you have to recognize that you're willfully inefficient.
Heather Bhandari:Like that's your art. You're going to go as slow as you can use an implement that is not the best thing to make that thing and you're going to use all the wrong tools to make something that you could have used all these different other tools or you could have taken a photo, but no, you're not going to do that. You're going to like spend 10 hours making the thing that could have used all these different other tools or you could have taken a photo, but no, you're not going to do that. You're going to like spend 10 hours making the thing that could have taken one second. So also recognizing, like where in business you're going to take that concept and what makes it your art is that you do the exact opposite of what every business would want you to do and then like, how do you control for that If you're willfully inefficient, then how are you going to make money in the future if you can only make three things a year? So anyway, but we're trying to like figure out the like. Yeah, the bigger direction.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, yeah. Whether you have a direction or not, that's where you'll end up.
Andy Heise:Yeah, something you can link those concepts to as you're going through the course or whatever, or the, the program as you're talking about reviews, I I chuckled.
Nick Petrella:So andy and I both use the podcast and I. We have some other recordings that we use for the courses and kind of use them as case studies, ask questions etc. Most of the reviews are really good. I got one this past month that said all he makes us do is listen to jazz music and I was like what are you talking? Were you even in the course? Anyway, it's pretty funny.
Andy Heise:Oh, I've gotten one. That was I said he I don't know who the student was. The student was repulsed by the fact that I pushed my own podcast on the students, which I thought was awesome. It's like we started this podcast for you, but anyways.
Nick Petrella:It's not like you're selling it to them, yeah.
Andy Heise:Here I am getting rich off my students here.
Heather Bhandari:Yeah, exactly.
Andy Heise:A million theoretical dollars. Oh my God.
Heather Bhandari:But the fame You're getting the fame and the glory. Oh my gosh, yeah, the fame and glory getting the fame and the glory.
Andy Heise:Oh my gosh, yeah, the fame and glory.
Nick Petrella:It's hard to work with them now.
Heather Bhandari:It's hard.
Nick Petrella:So, heather, how do you see art curation changing in the next five to ten years?
Heather Bhandari:Oh boy, I see it. So I might be off base on this, but, um, but I see things as being more collaborative, Like I just I've seen that trend for a long time now and I think it's like picking up speed with, you know, galleries being um sharing responsibilities of things, sharing spaces, sharing art fair booths, um curators actually curating with artists, Like I've seen more and more, when you see who the curator was of the show, it's the curator in collaboration with an artist that made the group exhibition Acknowledgement. Like again this, like you're not alone genius, who actually also was part of the decision-making for this show. So I think, in general, I see it as being a more collaborative process, and I've also seen a lot more really interesting shows leave the traditional gallery space. So that's been a trend for a while now too.
Heather Bhandari:And I think picking up speed.
Andy Heise:You think that's just a challenge of the existing power structures and sort of again result of 2020 and like the pandemic and stuff like that kind of maybe maybe expediting that a bit. It's kind of what I you know. Like you said, you saw it happening for a while, but I feel like the pandemic was really impetus for a lot of that.
Heather Bhandari:Oh, I think so, and I think it was really hard to make ends meet for a while. Oh, I think so, and I think it was really hard to make ends meet for a while. So it was like a necessity to work with other people. And now people are like oh, that was actually kind of fun.
Heather Bhandari:There's actually a lot supposed to do. That that was tacky Um and now it's like but that artist actually understands the relationships between all the other artists in the show the best out of anybody, so why wouldn't they be acknowledged that they helped put that show together For?
Andy Heise:sure.
Heather Bhandari:So yeah.
Andy Heise:Interesting.
Nick Petrella:Yeah. So before we get to our final three questions, heather, I had one more question for you. We're recording this. A few months before your appearance at Art Without Limits here at Kent State, what will you be presenting for those who want to attend the event?
Heather Bhandari:I'm super excited to come to Kent State and I actually I'm going to leave it a secret, because it's sort of a secret to me also at this point.
Nick Petrella:It's not done yet, is it? It's not. I haven't even thought about it.
Andy Heise:Yeah, I saw that question. I was like I don't know what I'm doing.
Nick Petrella:That's an October problem.
Heather Bhandari:I tried to think of what it would, how I could answer that question, but then I'll be honest, things are going to happen between now and then also that I think might actually change what I say at Kent State.
Heather Bhandari:We'll see, because I do feel like a lot of these trends and ways that people are working it is changing a lot more quickly these days. So I don't want to write something now and then not actually believe it when I come there in October. So I don't want to write something now and then not actually believe it when I come there in October. But I in general I think I'm going to be talking about a lot of the things that we just talked about. Like I'm going to talk about my experience and the sort of the different challenges I've seen artists go through, artists go through and then the sort of like about marketing, marketing, sales, just getting your work out in the world, and then kind of some of the ways I've seen artists, curators, art world people deal with those challenges in the most interesting creative ways. So I'm hoping to give some examples and also talk about challenges and potential solutions for the future.
Nick Petrella:Perfect.
Andy Heise:Heather, we've reached the part of the interview where we ask all of our interviewees the same three questions, and the first question is what advice would you give to others wanting to become an art entrepreneur?
Heather Bhandari:So, looking back, although having a very specific plan was not the way that I went into arts entrepreneurship, I feel like being really observant and looking for holes in like where are things unfair?
Heather Bhandari:What isn't working for a lot of people Maybe yourself, maybe the people around you and then trying to figure out who has tried to solve that before. Um, I think that's really, really important and because one of one of my pet peeves in the art world, other than packing and shipping, is that people are starting things and you're like wait, but that that person over there is doing that exact same thing and they've been struggling doing it for like six years. If you helped them or like joined forces with them, that's going to be successful, instead of fighting over the same grant money for that thing. So, figuring out where the holes are and then looking really carefully and widely as to who's trying to tackle that problem and then, if there's no one there, start it yourself. If there's people there maybe that's not the thing Maybe you should be helping them, joining forces with them, talking to them, figuring out how you can add to the thing that they're doing.
Nick Petrella:What can we do to ensure the arts are more accessible and reaching the widest possible audience?
Heather Bhandari:So this one, I think, is super hard to answer because I feel like that involves a lot of systems that I don't have control over, and some of them the education system. I know a lot of people probably answer this in the exact same way. It's like kids have to be exposed to arts and music and all the arts as early as possible, even the business side of it too, like to know that that's a career and that people can make money and you should value it and you should pay money for it. Like that, changing that value system is really important. I think also, diversifying large swaths of the art world that are very white and very privileged needs for us to talk about this stuff a lot more and needs for us to talk about basic financial health and a living wage and all of that in the arts. I feel like those trends are happening and I would love to see more of that more living wages in the arts.
Heather Bhandari:Yeah, Lastly what's the best artistic or entrepreneurial advice anyone's ever given you. So this one. Someone said once to me, because some of the things that I've done have involved it's like creative study, for instance, is fiscally sponsored, which means we can apply for grants through New York Foundation for the Arts, and so I've done my fair share of asking for money for the different initiatives that I've been part of, both formally, informally, all over parts of my life. And someone once said if you ask for advice, you get money, and if you ask for money, you get advice, and if you ask for money, you get advice.
Heather Bhandari:And ever since I heard that I was like, oh my gosh, I have to ask everyone for advice. And it actually is super helpful. When you ask people around you and experts in the field and other people who have done what you've done what you're doing, funding tends to be much easier than if you're asking for funding. So I don't do it. I don't necessarily get have a meeting with someone hoping they're going to give me money at the end, asking for advice, but I just know that in the future if that person is in a position like so, so I found that to be. I know a lot of people say that, that phrase, but I, I, it really hit me strongly when I heard it.
Nick Petrella:Well, heather, we really applaud your passion to helping artists understand the business aspect of of their industry. You're definitely making a difference. Thanks for being on the podcast.
Heather Bhandari:Thank you both so much for having me. It's been a really fun time.
Andy Heise:Thanks, thanks.
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Nick Petrella:Thank you.
