Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
#303: Rebecca Driver (Founder of Rebecca Driver Media Relations (RDMR)) (pt. 1 of 2)
This week on the podcast is part one of interview with British entrepreneur, Rebecca Driver. She founded RDMR (Rebecca Driver Media Relations) in 2010 after having worked in classical music PR at Dvora Lewis PR, as publicist at the BBC Proms, BBC Radio 3, and Head of Press at the English National Opera.
Make sure you tune in to hear Rebecca's anecdotes and what she's learned over the years working with clients such as the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields and the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra. https://www.rdmr.co.uk/
Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast. Making art work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.
Andy Heise:Hi Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners. I'm Andy Heise and I'm Nick.
Nic, Petrella:Petrella. Rebecca Driver is with us today. She's the founder and CEO of Rebecca Driver Media Relations. She founded RDMR in 2010 after working in classical music PR at Dvora Lewis PR, as publicist at the BBC Proms, BBC Radio 3, and head of press at the English National Opera. Rebecca studied music at Royal Holloway University of London and head of press at the English National Opera. Rebecca studied music at Royal Holloway University of London and she is also a trustee for the National Youth Choir. Make sure you visit her website in the show notes so you can learn more about her team and their list of clients that include the Academy of St Martin in the Fields and the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra. Thanks for being with us, Rebecca!
Rebecca Driver:Such a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.
Nic, Petrella:Let's begin by having you summarize your journey from college graduate to business owner.
Rebecca Driver:Yeah, well, seems like a really long time ago now. But yeah, as you mentioned, I studied music at Royal Holloway University of London, which I absolutely loved. Amazing university, really fantastic place to study art subjects. Music's really strong there, and that's still the case today. I graduated in 2002.
Rebecca Driver:And I kind of knew that I wasn't good enough to be a performer. You have to be so unbelievably good. And so, you know, I knew I wanted to do something within the music sphere, but I didn't know quite what. And I, you know I did lots of extracurricular stuff when I was studying. I was president of the Music Society. You know I'd done lots of things whilst we were going through, and I knew I probably wanted to do something administrative, but I didn't really have a clue what. So I was applying for loads of jobs. As you know, the last few months of my degree were coming to an end and actually a very sweet story when I was actually in my graduation robes, graduating, I got a call from BBC Music magazine, which was my first ever job, to say you've got the job.
Nic, Petrella:Which was pretty cool yeah it was.
Rebecca Driver:It was.
Rebecca Driver:It was pretty great timing, um. So my first job was at people's music magazine, whilst they were still based in london. They're now based in bristol and um. I was pa to the editor, um, and the publisher, um, and that was an amazing founding in the kind of music sector because of course they're talking to people from across the sector. They were, you know, getting people pitching all sorts of things to them to get coverage in the magazine. So as the kind of first port of call to them, I was then getting exposure to all you know, all and sundry across the sector basically. So it was an amazing, amazing first job and I have really fond memories of it. And I then got a promotion and I started looking after that. They have I don't know if you've seen BBC Music magazine, but it has a cover CD on it every month and I started managing that. And then actually they decided to move the magazine to Bristol. They sold it from the BBC and sold it to an external publishing house and at that point I took redundancy. So at this point I was thinking, oh, what am I going to do? Don't quite know.
Rebecca Driver:And this wonderful woman, devorah Lewis, who sadly is no longer with us. She died in 2020. But she was really the trailblazer of classical music PR in the UK. She worked for the London Symphony Orchestra for over 40 years. She worked with Daniel Barenboim, with Previn, with Bernstein, when she lived in New York before she set up her business with Rostropovich I mean, just the list of names is phenomenal. And she called me up and of course she knew me because she was one of the PRs pitching to the magazine and she said and she had, she had this wonderful way of speaking and she always, when she picked up the phone, said my dear. So, anyway, she picked up the phone and said my dear, would you like a job? I was like, yeah, I would. Actually, and you know, I didn't really know what I was getting into. I'd had a bit of a flavor from being on the other side, but, um, it was all quite new to me. Um, so, anyway, wonderful, devorah gave me a job and, as they say, kind of, the rest is history.
Rebecca Driver:Um, it was, it was her that I cut and with Devorah that I cut my cloth.
Rebecca Driver:So I worked with her for just over four years, um, and it was a phenomenal experience, um, and really, truly, I feel I owe her everything actually, um, she she's been, she was such a mentor to me, um, she just was a phenomenal figure, um, and I, yeah, I really do feel I owe her an awful lot, um.
Rebecca Driver:So, yeah, that that's kind of how I my route, um, and then, after Devorah, I went to the proms and that was a um, a cover for a mat leave, um, and so I did about 18 months at the BBC in the end and I did Roger Wright's um first season in 2008, where it was his first prom season he was obviously already there as controller of Radio 3 and then from there, as you say, I went to English National Opera and I'd kind of always known that I wanted to set up on my own um and um, you know, I'd been thinking about it for a while and but I wanted to do several different jobs in order to feel like I had a really good founding of experience and contacts as well, because, quite frankly, you know, contacts is everything and what we do.
Rebecca Driver:And so, once I'd done a couple of years at E&O and I'd had those different experiences, I sort of felt, well, do you know what I kind of? I kind of feel like if I'm going to do it, let's do it, and I think my attitude was always well, if it doesn't work, I'll just get another in-house job, and so I suppose I didn't put too much pressure on myself in case it didn't work, which was, you know, always a possibility. And yeah, as you know, really, the rest is history and it's been an amazing journey and I've totally, totally loved every second of it.
Nic, Petrella:That's fantastic. So what you studied? Performance.
Rebecca Driver:That's your reason. I studied yeah, I, I did do an element of performance. It's a, it's a, it's a degree, that's not just performance. So you do some academic things as well. So in the first year you do a kind of um founding across everything. So you know you do some analysis, you do composition, you do a bit of performance, you do history. You know you do a whole scope of stuff. And then the second and third year you specialise in the things that you want to do and there's modules that you choose to do. So you know, I did a film music course. I specialised in performance. I'm a flautist I say am Very lapsed flautist. Then, you know, I did a course on Shostakovich, I did a course on Bartok. You know there was a whole load of things that you could choose from. So you then chose the things that you were most interested in to then take forward.
Nic, Petrella:Basically, so really, for what you do, it sounds like a vast majority of what you've learned was on the job. It sounds like a vast majority of what you've learned was on the job, but I would imagine your writing skills and then understanding the context of performing has helped out quite a bit.
Rebecca Driver:Yeah, for sure, I think, you know, having done quite an academic degree, which you might not necessarily think from doing a music degree, but because you do all of these elements, there was a lot of writing to it and I love writing.
Rebecca Driver:It's one of the things I love about my job actually, um and so and I love communicating in in all sorts of forms, um, so you know, I suppose if now, looking back on it, it feels a very natural thing to have come into, but at the time I also think, look, it was a very different time. Then, you know, there weren't necessarily the same exposure to things to young people as there are perhaps today. You know, I think we're slowly getting better at educating young people on what jobs exist, you know, and what possibilities there are. But certainly back then, you know, there was no one coming and saying to me oh, you know, you could go in and be an artist manager, or you could go and work as a stage manager at English National Opera or at the theatre, or, you know, those things just didn't exist, whereas now, you know I go and do talks all the time. You know, I've been back to my university, I've, you know, just to tell people what the possible options are, because they're so wide, you know.
Andy Heise:So, yeah, options are because they're so wide, you know, um. So, yeah, well, and that that's that was kind of my question uh is, how did you? I mean? So you said you, as you were graduating, you applied for a lot of different jobs um, were you applying for jobs in pr, and did you know what pr media relations even was at that point? Or how did you come to know that you wanted to do pr in? Yeah, it was?
Rebecca Driver:a really, it was really by accident.
Rebecca Driver:If I'm totally honest, you know it, it I didn't really know about it and I really started to learn about it when I got the job at bbc music magazine and was then understanding that, you know, people are pitching in and wanting to get their stories covered. So that's, that's really where I first knew about it. And then, of course, dev course, devorah asked me if I wanted a job, and that really is how it happened. So in a way, I absolutely fell into it. So, yeah, it was a bit by accident, but you know an amazing accident.
Andy Heise:Yeah, well, and it's like you don't know what's out there until you do take some action. You do something and then you're like, oh, is this is how this works?
Rebecca Driver:this is yeah if no one tells you about something or you don't talk about it or you're not exposed to it, then how can you know about it? And there's so many weird and wonderful jobs out there available to people that unless you get exposure to them, then how on earth is someone going to know about them? You know so, um. So yeah, I feel quite strongly about particularly non-performing roles within the music sector. I feel quite strongly about sharing that with young people, because I just think the more exposure they have to that, the more they can understand and realize that actually, if they're not good enough to be a performer, that does not mean that that's a full stop and you can't work in the music industry. You know that's right, and sometimes it's not even whether you're good enough that that's a full stop and you can't work in the music industry, you know.
Nic, Petrella:So that's right, yeah, and it sometimes it's not even whether you're good enough. I've talked with many musicians over the years who just they want to do something different, especially after COVID, actually.
Rebecca Driver:Yeah, totally, totally, absolutely.
Andy Heise:And when you, when you took the leap, after those number of experiences you had at different organizations, you took the leap to start, um, uh, our DMR, did you do it all Like? Did you just jump in and say, okay, I'm going to do this, or were you kind of dabbling, doing freelance, kind of side stuff and kind of building that as you went?
Rebecca Driver:I, I, I, I made the decision and then I tried to get a client on board so that I had enough money coming in it was just me to start with, and so, yeah, I got one client on board and then when that contract started, it was when I kind of fully fledged was up there, but for a few months in the background, I you know I was doing things. Actually, I set it up with my husband, who still works on it today with me. So he worked at the BBC for many years. He was working in running the producing schedules for subtitling on TV and so, but he'd kind of had enough of that. He'd done it for a long time and really wanted a change. And so we had this crazy patch where he took redundancy and we decided to sell the business and we got married all within the space of a year. It was bonkers I look back on it now.
Rebecca Driver:I'm like what were we doing?
Nic, Petrella:Sure, yeah, so did you save any money prior to this? It'll have a runway, or did you use that contract solely as you're?
Rebecca Driver:launching. Yeah, I used that contract but didn't put pressure on myself and kind of. But but also justin got some redundancy money from his job, so we did have a bit of a buffer not that that was really mine to spend then, but you know, um, but yeah, we, you know we, we definitely. But also I think it's really interesting, there are some jobs that you go out into and you need a lot of money in advance to be able to do it, and actually in PR, you really don't Everything you need. You can truly do it with a laptop and it's all about your black book, so it's all about those contacts and relationships. So actually it's one of the industries where you don't need to have a front-ended pile of cash to do it. Actually.
Nic, Petrella:So a couple things. I'm assuming over the years you had been working with Devorah and BBC and whatnot, you must have amassed a fairly substantial contact list. So my first question okay, so that's true's true. Secondly, did you have a non-compete?
Rebecca Driver:what do you mean?
Nic, Petrella:so a non-compete, so that you won't compete with.
Rebecca Driver:So if you worked at a different pr firm, no clients, um no, I've never really had to do that in any of my jobs. I mean, I left because it was a big institution. It's so different from you know, I think if you're working at an agency, then absolutely, and you know you're then going to go to another agency and steal a whole load of clients and that's a completely different scenario. But I think when you're going from in-house somewhere an opera house it's such a kind of in-house operation that there's not really the conflict, to be honest. So no, that that was never and never an issue.
Nic, Petrella:Yeah, perfect. Yeah, I just figured I'd ask for people wanting to do this because I mean, like you're saying, low barrier to entry, you do need the contacts, but if you're a people person, you could start looking at the smaller end.
Rebecca Driver:You're not going to immediately go to the. You know our lpo. You might go with a smaller orchestra or a band, whatever you want. Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, my first client was guildhall school of music and drama, who I still have today, and actually there's a very nice synergy with that, because when I worked with devora she did their pr so I've actually worked with them for it and she she basically decided to stand down and knew that I was looking to start up, so she suggested that I could take over that and they then asked me to come and pitch for it and I won it and yeah. So so yeah, that's it. As I say, she's been very good to me.
Nic, Petrella:So, Rebecca, what should musicians or any artists do in terms of public relations when they're starting out?
Rebecca Driver:yeah, um, it's really tough and I don't think it gets any easier.
Rebecca Driver:You know, um, it's a bit of a vicious circle because you need to have the concerts, events albums in order to have something to talk about, in order to PR them.
Rebecca Driver:So I think you know, in those very early days, I think, trying and networking as much as possible, meeting people in the sector, asking people to have a coffee with you, finding ways to get your name out there, you know, finding your voice on social media, all of these things don't cost anything and they're all things you can do to really start to build your network and actually there's so much value in that. You know, the artists that I see, who are young go getters, who really kind of get out there and talk to people, are the ones that are doing really really well. So I think you know most people can't afford to do so and also, quite frankly, if I'm being really honest, it's you know, I'm not going to take someone's money unless there's something to say and there's a story to tell. So in those early days you've really got to get the work in order to then have that narrative and story for a PR to tell for you. So, yeah, it's a really. It's a really tricky time for young artists and it's certainly not getting any easier.
Nic, Petrella:Have you had that conversation with young artists saying you know, I'd love to help you, but we're just not there yet?
Rebecca Driver:Absolutely, and I think people really appreciate the honesty. And I always want to be transparent, I always want to be up front with people and you know I've gone in and done lots of talks to young people and you know we, in fact we, we do a um, we're doing a PR course for Guildhall School. They have a adult learning program, um, and we're about starting next week actually we're doing a four-week program of a kind of introduction to PR and you get a real mix of people coming on and in fact I don't know who this year's um group are going to be. I'll find out probably in the next couple of days.
Rebecca Driver:But you know, last year when we did it, we had, you know, some people who were already working in arts organisations but just wanted to brush up on a bit more PR knowledge, so they'd come along to do that. We had some young artists who wanted to know a bit more, you know. So a real mix of people. So you know I'm all up for doing those kinds of things because I think the more you can do to educate and help people, the better. Ultimately.
Nic, Petrella:Sure yeah. So, andy, I don't, I don't know, probably now is not a good time to bring up your bass mixtape. Yeah, because I don't think she wants to.
Andy Heise:I don't have much of a story to tell there yet.
Rebecca Driver:In development. Yeah, oh, okay.
Andy Heise:And so, as we've been talking about, you've worked with prestigious organizations like the BBC, proms and the E&O, but you also work with individual artists. So how do you tailor PR strategies from well-established organizations to individual artists?
Rebecca Driver:Yeah, it's a really great question and it's really interesting because actually the principle of PR will always be the same. You know, you're always looking for a story and to create a narrative. So actually in many ways it doesn't change whether it's a big institution, like the BBC proms, or an individual. Actually your methods will still be very, very similar. But obviously each, each project, client, individual, organisation is bespoke. So of course there are nuances within that and you obviously need to meet the organization or the individual. You need to really have a good understanding of everything that's happening and then together and it's very much a collaborative process you know you shouldn't be doing this in isolation. It's a conversation, um, you then really talk about what the angles are, what the story is that they want to tell, and then you help to shape that and to pull that together. So you know you need to help them to find what the artistic hooks are, to then find moments to tell those stories. So that might be an album release, it might be a big concert series, it might be a world premiere of something that's been written for someone, it might be a big festival that they're performing at, and you know, you then start to map out your timeline of what that looks like and from that you can then start to create a framework and to build a strategy through that. And then it's about really drawing out those individual stories around those projects. Basically, so you know, if it's, if it's for, say, take an example of one of my current clients, so I work with Britain Peers Arts in Suffolk who put on the Albra Festival, which was founded by Benjamin Britton, the composer, and his partner, the singer, peter Piers, and you know that's a really prestigious, high profile event here in the UK in the classical sphere and you know I feel very lucky to work with them. It's a wonderful organization. Um, so you know that process will be about and in fact, I'm next week going to talk about 2025, having only really just finished 24 in june, you know, um, so it's amazing how quickly this stuff comes around. But yeah, so that initial conversation will be they will give me a rundown of what's, of what's happening.
Rebecca Driver:Then we start to together to brainstorm, to think about what the key stories are, what the angles are. You know it might be that there's four, so for 2024 there was four um featured artists. So of course they then become linchpins and you think about. You know you, you research all of them, you talk to them, you have conversations, you see what they're happy to do, you see what they want to do. You then start to see where the gaps are, where they haven't had coverage. You know, for someone that's got a very high profile, there might not be very many gaps. So you know, you then have to think, well, actually, and they might be really busy and they might say, well, I can only do two things. So then you think, ok, well, I really want to maximise those two things. So you then think, ok, these are the gaps, these are the two really high profile things, let's try for those.
Rebecca Driver:So it's a real jigsaw puzzle and it's one that changes on a daily basis, because of course you'll have, you might have done all of that research, and then you get your strategy done and you've got a whole list of things. So you know you'll have realized that x artist who's at that festival has not done interviews with xyz. So you think, okay, that they're possible things to look at. But then you go to that publication and they go, oh, actually we've done something really similar, so that's not going to work. And then it completely spins on its head, so it ends up somewhere else. So it's it's just a big jigsaw puzzle, basically, which you start out with a kind of map of what you think that might look like, but more often than not it will shift and change as you go through then actually trying to execute that. So, yeah, it's a fascinating process and one that I love, you know, because it really does move on a daily basis. Well, I love that.
Andy Heise:I love that idea of finding the gaps right. So you're sounds like it's a lot of conversations, a lot of so many with with the artists, with the organizers. But then you take those conversations and you have to go to the outlets and say, hey, would this be something that would fit with? Exactly and then once you, once you have a fit, now you're like okay, now, now we actually put it together, can do an interview, exactly right.
Rebecca Driver:But it's really quite a lengthy process sometimes to get to that point. You know, and I think that's probably what a lot of people might not really understand is that you know what we do is not purely about column inches or broadcast inches. Or you know, of course now with the digital explosion podcasts, socials you know there's um, there's so many different outlets and possibilities now, but you know there's so much other stuff that goes into getting to that point.
Nic, Petrella:Um, right, yeah and that's what I was going to ask. So you must also do a fair amount of research on, you know, podcasts, blogs, everything tons of things coming up that didn't exist even last week. Plus you're doing research on the artists yeah, it's busy yeah, okay yeah, I haven't thought about that
Rebecca Driver:I have to say, keeping keeping on top of the kind of the ever moving tech world. You know there's, if you, if I think and I know you, um will probably touch on this a bit more later but you know, if we think about how things have changed from when I started in this industry to now, I mean it's just unrecognizable. You know the difference and just the sheer volume now is just ginormous. So actually that's one of our biggest challenges as prs, I would say is is just keeping on top of the you know, ever emerging new things that appear, which is brilliant because it gives us more avenues and more outlets. But yeah, it's hard and you know there's constantly things we are like, oh, I've never heard of that. That's new to me, you know, particularly with podcasts and that kind of sphere because they're popping up all the time.
Andy Heise:Yeah, Particularly with podcasts and that kind of sphere, because they're popping up all the time. Yeah, it's just like just being. You have to do this. It sounds like you have to be someone who's just constantly alert and open to what's happening and like constantly open to new things or existing things, whatever, but always kind of looking for those opportunities, like you're always kind of open and allowing those things to come to you absolutely.
Rebecca Driver:You know we, we, a big part of what we do and we feel as a responsibility to the people that we work with is to have our finger on the pulse in terms of what's going on and what's happening. So you know we will read the papers every day. You know we monitor socials. You learn so much from there. You know you make sure that you're seeing big announcements, um, that are going out. You're keeping on top of all that stuff. You're seeing who's writing what where, who's presenting what, where, um, you know and, and actually that it it's a it's a massive job to do that, but it's absolutely crucial to to be to having your finger on the pulse and and to making sure that your clients feel like you're. You know you're really at the cutting edge and you know what's going on. So, yeah, I would say that's a really huge part of our role actually is to be able to advise them and to make the right decisions with the right people and to match people with the right journalists as well, you know.
Nic, Petrella:Are you able to automate that by doing internet searches setting up like a Google search or anything, or no?
Rebecca Driver:Yeah, so we have various things that we use. So we have a cutting service, we use a company and that's a more sophisticated Google search basically, so you can put more things in and it it should, in theory most of the time it is um be more effective. But we do use google searches as well, actually, because, um, yeah, sometimes there are there are things that get missed. So, yeah, we, we do that. Um, what else we do? And and yeah, radio and tv is a bit harder, you know, you just have to stuff. I mean, there are cutting service you can use for it, but it's really expensive. So I've never gone down that road actually, but yeah, we're quite good at I mean it's good for us to listen anyway. So, you know, try and keep on top of things on the shows that we know are regularly doing stuff.
Andy Heise:Yeah Well since you brought it up. Can you briefly explain what a cutting service is?
Rebecca Driver:oh sorry yeah so basically um, so.
Rebecca Driver:So by that I mean, um, any kind of uh piece that runs in the media. So, for example, royal liverpool philharmonic um, they will be one of our clients that is then named uh, and the company that we use they put, they have a search search words. Basically, so we'll have liverpool philharmonic, the whole thing. Um, you know, and you can come up with lots of different things. So for um, so for britain piz arts, for example, it's at snake maltings, there's also the red house. Like you can have different search words so that it then is picking up anything and the idea being that it's across anything online. I said anything that's digital. So obviously pretty much all newspaper content is now available online. Um, uh, so in theory, it should then pick everything up that's running that day. Um, but we do, and then basically every morning we get a report from them, which then breaks it down, and then we have a press assistant in our team and it's her job to then circulate those to our clients to make sure they're seeing everything. Basically, Great.
Andy Heise:Yeah.
Nic, Petrella:Thanks, since you brought it up about how things have changed for the past 14 years. What have changed and how have you had to adapt?
Rebecca Driver:Yeah, yeah, so much. So I think it's been a huge period of change. I think LinkedIn was probably just about getting going, but I mean, yeah, there was no Facebook yet there. You know that that. But that, you know, then did start to really emerge. Um, so I would say that's been the real um change in how we operate in the there's obviously everything is so much faster now, so much more readily available.
Rebecca Driver:So you know, in when I first started, you know, say, 20 plus years ago, you know if, if something, you know if some, you know something went wrong somewhere. For example, you know if something happened at a concert, you know someone I don't know, I'm totally making this up, it's not a real scenario but you know something happened at a concert. You know someone, I don't know, I'm totally making this up, it's not a real scenario. But you know if someone had a heart attack while they were performing, for example, in those days and age, in that day and age, you know it would only be the people in the room that knew about it. You'd have time to, you know, sort out your response. You'd have time to get your ducks in a row, whereas now everyone would be on their phones tweeting insta immediately. So it just means, as a pr, you have to operate in such a different way and so much faster. So it means the preparation time. You know you have to almost foresee what the challenges might be and have prepared for them, um, and obviously something like that. You know, you could never. You could never foresee, of course, and I'm being totally hypothetical, um, but it's just to make the point that you know it's um, yeah, it, and that has really changed how, how we have to operate, basically, and also, I think the thing it's also done is that you know, we've all got so much content available to us. We're being bombarded by it every single minute of every day. If we choose to be and some people don't, some people, you know, switch off from it, um, and so actually, what's really different also is that there's so many more ways in which we consume things and therefore everyone's time is so stretched. So actually having cut through and actually getting to someone and getting their attention is all the harder because there is so much noise, um, so, you know, I think we also have to be so aware that different people consume things in totally different ways.
Rebecca Driver:So a successful campaign has to try and cater to all of those things. So, you know, a 70 year old might still be buying a physical newspaper every day and that is still important. There's still an audience for that, um. But actually a 20 year old and of course I'm massively, you know, massively generalizing here, um, um, but a 20 year old is probably getting everything on tiktok and youtube. You know that is is is likely where it's at and, yes, there'll absolutely be exceptions. Of course there always are. But you know it means that you can't just do a traditional print broadcast campaign, you can't just do the digital new media campaign. You need both in order to really reach that broadest possible audience and to be really hitting all those places with whatever you're doing. And for some things, you know, and of course that's always the goal you always want to reach the widest possible audience with anything. So sure.
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