Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
#306: Jess Williams (2D/3D Motion Graphics, Designer, Art Director) (pt. 2 of 2)
This week on the podcast is part two of our interview with Jess Williams. She’s a professional 2D/3D motion graphics artist, designer, and art director. Jess has designed graphics for national broadcast, sports, entertainment, digital channels, television shows and films, working with clients including Disney, Netflix and Warner Brothers.
These days she works with companies and start-ups to create stunning explainer videos, logo intros/outros, social media content and product videos to tell their stories.
Anyone looking for creative ways to market their arts offerings should tune in. https://cargocollective.com/JessicaDonofrioWilliams
Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast. Making art work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.
Andy Heise:Hi Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners. I'm Andy Heise and I'm Nick.
Nick Petrella:Petrella Jess Williams is with us today. She's a professional 2D and 3D motion graphics artist, designer and art director. She's designed graphics for national broadcast sports entertainment, digital channels, tv shows and films, working with clients such as Disney, netflix and Warner Brothers. Jess is currently working with companies and startups to create stunning explainer videos, logo intros and outros social media content and product videos to tell their stories. Thanks for coming on the podcast, jess.
Jess Williams:Thanks for having me, guys. This is a very exciting break in my day.
Andy Heise:Can you tell us a little bit about your, your process? Are you, do you, work solely in the digital realm? Are you bringing in some analog aspects as well, or what? What's your, what's your preferred method?
Jess Williams:I prefer to do things digital because it's quickest, but I will. I I find that concepting ideas works better if I'm not in front of my computer at all. So, like when I'm concepting, I try to be outside of my office just with pencil and paper. Um, and sometimes those pencil and paper sketches make their way all the way through and I do do some hand-drawn animations and even paintings for clients. So it's, it's what, whatever needs to be done to bring the vision to life and sometimes nothing can compete with actually hand-drawing it or, you know, putting in that time outside, away from the computer, putting in that time outside away from the computer.
Andy Heise:For sure. So how does how does working with um in your in the intro that Nick had you're doing some work with some uh new businesses, some startups. How does working with them differ from more established companies like uh Netflix or a Disney or a Warner brothers?
Jess Williams:The bigger the client I've noticed the smaller the degree of creativity they require or desire from me. So they will bring the reference, they will bring the art, they will bring everything and they'll just say make it move exactly like this moves, and I can do that, you know. Or smaller companies tend to need or may need your help with creative creating assets, ideas on how to animate it.
Nick Petrella:So they might want more, need more out of you, a bigger degree of creativity creativity On a newer firm, though you're kind of as a coach or an educator, because the large firms have people who know what they want. They just need someone to do it.
Jess Williams:to take that off their plate Right.
Nick Petrella:Wow.
Jess Williams:Yeah, and the smaller ones they just need, they need. They don't have any. They might not have a creative team whatsoever, so they might not have a brand guide, they might not have anything, and they need your help developing that and so or yeah, or even the right digital right assets that you need to like, so you're creating all of that stuff. Yeah, and they might not even know what they need, what the final formats are that they need. So they need, they need some help.
Andy Heise:And that's where your art director, experience comes, comes in, mean, that's yeah definitely.
Jess Williams:Yeah, I'm accustomed to making those, so I'm happy to help them with those if they want it, or if they want to do it, I'm happy to sit back and take art direction from whomever yeah, yeah, you know, in a way you're trying not to have an ego. I try, I really very much try not to have an ego at all, as when I'm working with people, Sure.
Nick Petrella:So it came up in a recent interview we had with Jordan Pearlson. He's a percussionist, drummer, and he plays, but then sometimes he gets into the production side of it and that's kind of what you're doing. So at some point when you were hired to do a task, make this thing move or whatever, do you renegotiate and say, hey, I'm kind of now the de facto art director, so we're going to have to renegotiate this contract because you're doing more than you anticipated. Has that ever happened?
Jess Williams:Oh yeah, I wouldn't. I don't, um, I I try. I wouldn't put labels on it, but I just say, you know, if you want a brand guide, I'd be happy to do that. It's going to take um some more hours.
Andy Heise:Yeah.
Jess Williams:So you know if you want to put in some more time. More time equals more money. How to, however? They want to slice it and dice it. It's up to them.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, okay, so you don't differentiate between tasks or positions, yours purely on time.
Jess Williams:Yeah, yeah. How much time the project takes is how much money it's going to cost.
Nick Petrella:Gotcha. So we had touched upon it a little bit. But was there an aha moment when you decided to break out on your own?
Jess Williams:When I was let go, you were informed of this moment I was told the moment is here, but actually I mean, even right after Merry Greetings, I still wanted to get another full-time job, art director. I still wanted all that. Um, it took a while coming down from that to realize that, like to realize how stressed and how, how much stress and how busy I was and how it wasn't really. You know, my kids, my kids didn't. That didn't affect my. My kids were not better off because I had a more powerful job and made more money. They enjoyed having me home more and less stressed. So that was that's more important to me.
Andy Heise:Yeah, so that that was sort of the yeah, that would be my aha moment.
Jess Williams:The tipping point, the tipping point, the tipping point.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, yeah, that makes sense and how long did it take you to realize that it wasn't immediate? Doesn't sound like?
Jess Williams:no, it was not immediate. I mean, um, it probably took. Oh, I think it took until summer came around because, like, okay, so since college I'd been working full time and then all of a sudden I wasn't working full time and I got enough of a severance package from AG, that like I could kind of think about things. But then summer came around and I remembered how fun summer is and I was like I do not want to miss out on summer anymore, ever again, and so I kind of had to figure out a way to full-time jobs. They even make you work during the summer. So well, I guess most of them yeah yeah, no, that's good.
Andy Heise:Yeah, summer, summer's fun yeah.
Jess Williams:Endless possibilities. It's great. I love summer.
Andy Heise:Are there times when the clients wanted something different from what you feel is what would work best creatively, and how do you navigate those conversations?
Jess Williams:um, clients have their own point of view and I'm here to support them and encourage them and bring to life the video that they want, and it always turns out for the best in the end. I do my best to not present anything dumb to the clients that I don't like. I work on it on my own until I am proud of something and then I will show it to them. I try not to show them things that they could riff off of. That's not something I feel good about. So there's, there's, but they do make choices or have color palettes that I do not feel excel, but it works. It's tells their brand story. So who am I to?
Andy Heise:Yeah, yeah, and I think you said this earlier you, you're, you set your ego aside and you're at the service of the client.
Jess Williams:Yeah, if they want to make. Yeah, if they want to make a bunch of changes, then let's do it. You know I and I inform them. You know I don't, I don't do things for free. So, but if they want to make changes, then let's make all the changes you want to make.
Nick Petrella:Yeah yeah, good yeah, jess. How do you find new clients? That Nick you're coming in with the hard hitting questions over here that I do not have answers for.
Jess Williams:That's what we do on this podcast? You really do. That is something I've always struggled with. I try to keep connections as opposed to find new clients Like I. You know I try to. I try to do a really great job for my clients so that they come back to me over and over again and recommend me to their friends, and that's the best way I really handle that. I don't. I don't like to find. I haven't had the greatest experience just finding clients of people who just need something real quick. I doesn't always go well, so, um, I just try to nurture the clients that I have and do the best by them and they've done good for me.
Nick Petrella:So primarily word of mouth, and that's a stronger connection than just putting up a sign.
Jess Williams:Yes, definitely. Animator for rent yeah, Right, and I've had a long career so I know a lot of people in the business and that's helped me.
Andy Heise:So let's talk a little bit about pricing. How do you, how do you approach pricing for your clients? And you know it's a competitive space, right? There's a lot of people out there who can offer 2D, 3d, digital animation art, so I imagine that makes it a little bit challenging as well.
Jess Williams:If I am underbid and a client goes with them because they want something cheaper, then they should go with that person. I don't really. I mean, I've, um, I feel that I put my all into making great work for a client, Um, but if they're just concerned with how much money it takes them, maybe I'm not the right person for them.
Andy Heise:Yeah, and in terms of um, your, your pricing, do you look at sort of the Cleveland market? Are you on a national market? Like, how do you, how do you kind of get an idea of where you should, where you should, position yourself?
Jess Williams:Well, again, I'm really fortunate that I was an art director for so long and had so, like got such a great feel of what other freelancers charge in the United States for similar work, and so I have that kind of basis and so I charge. Mainly, I think of how many hours do I think it's going to take me to do this, and then some clients want per project price. Other clients want me to just keep track of my hours, but I I kind of think of things in my head of how many hours do I think this is going to take me to do and charge it out from there and also keep in mind what the um longevity of the piece perhaps Like. If somebody wants social media content, you know I have to keep in mind to scope down my ideas, because that's going to live on their feed for what, like a? You know it's just going to, it's not, it's just not the same.
Andy Heise:Put it on the reel for 24 hours, or whatever. Yeah Right, yeah, so you just can't charge a premium for stuff like that. It's just going to, it's not, it's just not real for 24 hours, or whatever. Yeah, right.
Jess Williams:Yeah, so you just can't charge a premium for stuff like that, so you just have to be mindful of where it's going and how you can make it fit that.
Andy Heise:Yeah, that makes sense.
Nick Petrella:So have you ever done? If you're thinking ongoing, so past one, one event or one contract, have you done returner work?
Jess Williams:yeah, I've done that with quite a few, um, different companies. I find that more often than not it gets very difficult because I find myself getting invested in the work. If you're working with a company for like a couple months and then it just starts snowballing into me, putting more hours into it, just because I you know well, I see that and I see that you might need that, and so I see it's a.
Jess Williams:It's a. It's great to have steady income and know it's it's great, but it does tend to balloon into way more hours.
Nick Petrella:Right.
Andy Heise:So and. I think the retainer thing is an interesting concept. Uh, when you did that was that kind of like again, sort of like well, we'll pay you a thousand dollars a month and that'll be about whatever. 10 hours of work, approximately a month.
Jess Williams:Yeah, they, that's how it's always scoped out. But then, once, once they have your number, once you get in it, yeah, yeah, they, that's how it's always scoped out. But then, once, once they have your number once you get in it, yeah. Yeah.
Andy Heise:Yeah, or or? Well, you didn't. We didn't really use 10 hours last month, so we're going to do 12 hours or something like that, you know.
Jess Williams:Yeah, it's always. It's always, it's always tricky, always tricky yeah.
Nick Petrella:This. This has come up a couple of times actually. So do you bill in hour increments 15 minute increments six minute?
Jess Williams:increments Hour increments.
Nick Petrella:Okay, jess, we have a broad audience, but many of our listeners are college age and young professionals. What would you tell them if you were asked if it matters where you live, you know, do you need to be in a large city to be successful as a digital artist?
Jess Williams:I think it matters what they want to accomplish in their career and in their life. And in their life I found you know artists are passionate people and I wouldn't undersell the importance of your own personal happiness when it comes to your career. So I was. I was not really a city person, I'm just not. I like to be outside in nature. It didn't overly suit me, but I did it for a little bit. I got great experience and now I can come back home and have that and be here and do my work. So, yes, get you might get more experience in another city. Does it make you happy? I don't know, maybe it's not your long-term thing, but maybe going out somewhere to get experience or maybe you find that that does suit you. But I do think it's all important your mental health and happiness.
Nick Petrella:Yeah.
Andy Heise:Do you have any experience on the digital freelancing platforms or the online freelancing platforms like fiverr, upwork or anything like that?
Jess Williams:I've looked into them several times and I don't feel that they suit me. I mean, there's people on there who I mean just that at my glance who are willing to do animations for $5 an hour. $20 for an animation, and that's not a game I want to get into.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, I'd be interested in hiring somebody, just to see how it differs.
Andy Heise:We tried that once, Nick.
Nick Petrella:No, no, I meant, if I were you. Yeah, we tried that once too. Yeah, that was-.
Jess Williams:How was it? I mean, I imagine you could it was terrible yeah we tried that once too. How was it? I mean, I imagine you could probably find somebody who's willing to do that.
Andy Heise:Yeah, I think we walked. I mean, I think we just kind of like there was like it was one of those deals where it was like okay, $15, and you'll get like two rounds of revisions or something like that.
Jess Williams:Yeah.
Nick Petrella:I think we just walked away from it.
Andy Heise:That would affect your brand, if that's where you're. Well, it kind of comes back to that earlier question that I was thinking about before, about, like, am I doing this just to earn a buck, or am I like is this my thing that I'm? I want freelancing to be my business, my job, that I'm doing?
Jess Williams:Yeah, I find that anytime I've undersold my work, I have been very unhappy with the final product and it has not made for a lasting client relationship, which I'm not really looking to to do. I want to find clients that I can keep working with and um and just continue that relationship.
Andy Heise:Yeah, that's kind of the psychologically. You think, oh, I'm going to give them a little discount on this first one with hopes that it leads to future work, but what you're saying in your experience, that hasn't ever panned out.
Jess Williams:Well, when people are very, very, if money is the number one thing that they're thinking about, it can be tricky. And if they are thinking about I want to make a great product, then that's a great relationship.
Nick Petrella:Yeah.
Jess Williams:And it doesn't mean I need to, like you know, hose them and like charge a ton of money. I can still do things and we can still work together, understanding that there's a budget. But creating a good product is important to me.
Andy Heise:Yeah.
Nick Petrella:It's one of the things I mention all the time to students. Don't sell on price. You reduce it to a commodity, and if you don't appreciate your work, why would anyone?
Jess Williams:else Right. Yeah, very well said.
Andy Heise:It's the transactional sort of thing. It doesn't work in the long run. It might work this one time, but thinking of the service that you're providing as transactional just.
Jess Williams:Right, yeah, it never works.
Nick Petrella:What do you think is the biggest barrier to entry for people entering your field?
Jess Williams:field. I think around here it might be the ability to get in at entry-level jobs. Just because there's not that many jobs of people who are doing this per se here, you might need to go. You might need to Go somewhere where the market is bigger or just work something that's not even an entry level job Just gets you in the door of the company you want to work for or the brand you're interested in or people who are close to it. You just got to try to get close to it.
Andy Heise:Get in, and then you can, yeah, yeah.
Jess Williams:Yep, yeah, you got to when you're right out of college. You got a long way to go, so it might not be an animator job. That's the first job you get. It might be, you know, chiron operator at the news station, but they're making digital, they're making content, so there's lots to be learned there.
Nick Petrella:That's got to be an important job, though, because if you have a couple of typos, that could be really funny.
Jess Williams:I mean, oh yeah, it was not funny, nobody laughed, they were not pleased.
Andy Heise:We'll talk about that after we stop recording. Well, that goes along with I think. I think you said when you moved to Chicago you took some of the I think you said lower level jobs would allow you to perhaps take on some of the higher level jobs until maybe you find a full-time gig at a production house or something like that.
Jess Williams:Yeah, I mean, that's a very idealistic way to say it. Really, I just was still, you know, a kid out of school. I didn't have the experience, um, you know so.
Andy Heise:I don't, it's just what you did, right? Yeah, I did not.
Jess Williams:I did not merit a great job at a higher production company. You know, I had a lot to learn still so, and people to meet and things to learn and so and I learned a lot of things there.
Andy Heise:So you got to pay your dues now it's time for the the really hard questions no, jess, we've reached the point of the interview where we ask all of our interviewee the same. Now it's time for the really hard questions. No, jess, we've reached the point of the interview where we ask all of our interviewees the same three questions, and the first question is what advice would you give to others wanting to become an art entrepreneur?
Jess Williams:My advice would be that it ain't easy, but it is so, so worth it. Being an artist is the best thing ever, and it's the only thing I can do.
Andy Heise:But it ain't easy. Can I ask a quick follow-up? We usually don't do that in this part of the show Breaking the rules.
Jess Williams:I like it Andy.
Andy Heise:Well, it just occurred to me, because the question I asked you is uh, what did you? What advice would you give to others wanting to become an art entrepreneur? Did you ever want to become an art entrepreneur?
Jess Williams:I want only to be an artist. That's all I've ever wanted to be Um. I don't really excel. Wanted to be Um. I don't really excel. I feel like I'm an artist at my core. I don't. I don't super excel in an office environment, in a cubicle. I excel being creative in a lot of different ways, and that's what I. It's all I can do.
Andy Heise:So and entrepreneurship, self-employment, freelancing that's the way that you're able to to be creative.
Jess Williams:That's the way I'm able to be creative and lead a life that I'm proud of. Right, I think I am. I like to be creative in a lot of ways. I like to cook, I like to garden, I like to paint, I like to do all lot of ways. I like to cook, I like to garden, I like to paint, I like to do all kinds of stuff, and I feel like I need to do all those things to be the best me and to make so I feel fortunate to be able to do that.
Andy Heise:Yeah, okay, time in.
Nick Petrella:What can we do to ensure the arts are more accessible and reaching the widest possible audience?
Jess Williams:These are some heavy hitting questions.
Nick Petrella:Should have read the fine print. It's too late now.
Jess Williams:Well, I think I another thing I'm proud of is that I'm an artist here in the small community that I live at, where anytime I tell people what I do, they're like what I've never heard, I've never met anybody who has done such a thing, and so it's cool that to be here and doing that and like I can go to my' schools and tell them what I do, and they're just so excited that they haven't met another animator. So I think that those are ways that I hope inspires people around me to do and kids that they can do whatever they want.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, so awareness.
Jess Williams:Yeah.
Andy Heise:Good. Lastly, what's the best artistic or entrepreneurial advice you've been given?
Jess Williams:So many big words too in your hard hitting questions. What's the best advice? Um, I think it's just going back into that. It's going to take hard work and nobody said it's going to be easy. You know, I put in a lot of hours, a lot of hours to make the work that I make. There's not really a shortcut to putting in the in the hard work. That's kind of like a life. That's a life advice right there.
Andy Heise:Yep.
Nick Petrella:Well, Jess, it's been great having you on the podcast and hearing your approach. Oh, I did it.
Jess Williams:I did it, I did it the hard-hitting question, the big words that's right, oh, okay, that's right.
Nick Petrella:Your approach to entrepreneurship and just how well you blend it with your family life. It's inspiring.
Jess Williams:Thanks, man, I appreciate that.
Andy Heise:Thanks, Jess.
Jess Williams:Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. Thanks for talking with me. I appreciate it.
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