Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
#309: Vera Holczer-Waroquet (Pianist & Founder of Aurora School of Music) (pt. 1 of 2)
Today we released part one of our interview with Vera Holczer-Waroquet. She’s a Hungarian pianist who came to the US after finishing her degree at Budapest’s Bartok High School Conservatory. She studied music at UCLA and went to graduate school at the Cleveland Institute of Music. Upon graduation, she started a small teaching studio that quickly grew into the Aurora School of Music that trains over 1,000 students per week and hosts numerous events she hosts each year.
Anyone interested in launching any type of arts teaching studio, or needing inspiration on how to grow a teaching studio, should tune in to hear what Vera has to say! https://auroraschoolofmusic.com/
Hi Nick Petrella here. This episode is sponsored by Volkwein's Music, a full-service shop that's been meeting the musical needs of musicians for over 135 years. They offer a huge selection of instruments, accessories, music and more. They also have an unmatched instrument repair department with some of the most experienced technicians in the business. For years they've serviced my personal and school instruments, and their attention to detail is why I and professional musicians from around the globe trust Volkwines to service their gear. Head over to volkwinesmusiccom to see what they can do for you. That's V-O-L-K-W-E-I-N-S music. com, helping people discover music since 1888.
Announcer:Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast. Making Art Work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts Andy.
Andy Heise:Heise and Nick Petrella. Hi Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners. My name is Andy Heise.
Nick Petrella:And I'm Nick Petrella. Vera Holczer-Waroquet is on the podcast today. She's a Hungarian pianist who came to the US after finishing her degree at the Bartok High School Conservatory in Budapest. She studied music at UCLA and went to graduate school at the Cleveland Institute of Music. Upon graduation, she started a small teaching studio that quickly grew into the Aurora School of Music that trains over 1,000 students per week. Vera's website is in the show notes where you can learn more about her, her studio and the numerous events she hosts each year. Thanks for being here, Vera.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:Thank you for having me. This is great.
Nick Petrella:Let's begin by walking us through the steps you took to go from teaching piano lessons from your house to building a facility that hosts over 1,000 students a week.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:Right, I mean it's such a humongous question, right, because we are talking about 21 years elapsing between. So I was a 25 year old girl super excited in my house and, yes, I had already grown that studio to the level where some people would have multiple teachers. So I taught 98 students a week. That's most people would say it's on the cusp of being crazy, but you have to love what you do and I'm pretty much a private lesson instruction crazy person. I think the amount that you can form an individual, how much you can get done, how much progress you can make with one individual, is extremely rewarding. It almost can be an addictively beautiful process. It's a self-feeding positive, as I say. So, yes, and then when you reach that level, you start looking at different areas and I know I'm sure we're going to cover up market research and where do you establish your facility facility facility? You know market research and where do you establish your facility facility facilities?
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:Always the question when it comes to private lessons and teaching and music, right, and I mean you can hire people who help you the operational, transitional thing of, oh, you do lessons, how do you do monthly billing? How are you going to position your protocols and your policies and the communication style and stuff like that. There's plenty of people who do consulting. You can just literally Google stuff. I hired someone from Canada who would just give a couple tapes and videos and you just know how to set things up and it's not that complicated, you just have to be able to be there. So what was very difficult for me is teaching this many students and overseeing the administration. That was hard, you know. But and at the first, at the beginning, you just don't know anything. And that's the the beauty of it, because if you knew everything, you would give up the first step. So that's a great thing.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:I suppose I always tell people being a little naive and a side of being a little ding-dong is not a bad thing, it's great.
Andy Heise:That's awesome.
Nick Petrella:So I want to know how you got from teaching at your house to the facility.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:Right. So the first location was in Aurora, ohio. So here's what happened In my lunch breaks, because I would teach from 9 to 1130, those were the very young kids who were not in school yet three and four-year-olds and people who had either flexibility or mostly retired, and this was their new passion and you can really fill up your schedule with that. So, and then after that, you know, 12, 30, uh, you're in a lunch break and then you would restart to 2 30 again. Right, there are certain school systems that let their kids out earlier and then they come first, etc. I see.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:So my entire lunch break was driving around, driving around different neighborhoods, understanding that where I was renting a house and where my home studio was, they already had an art center. I don't think it's a good idea to open something. That's a direct competition. It's not a good good. I mean, unless you're I don't know maybe you're in a very busy city and you just have a corner and that's your option. I think, if you're in the suburbs, more like the choices I made for being in the suburbs, because I think suburbs is one of the most important thing to understand. There's children there, there are families, and they chose housing based on school systems, so they care about education and they're willing to do whatever it takes for that. So I went around. Twinsburg already had a facility.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:Hudson had something going on. This was 21 years ago. Aurora had nothing, literally nothing. Years ago, aurora had nothing, literally nothing. So I knew that, if I look at that area, that would be a good one, because, one, you don't step on someone's toes, you don't want to start something like that. Number two, you have this oh, we have something that was never there before. The novelty is going to be great. And then you have to look at connectivity. So if you have someone from another place, like Hudson, how far is it? And so location is very important. I know sometimes people look at freeway access. That's a great thing, but you really have to look at neighborhood connectivity.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, and we'll get into that later on. I think there's a question on the site.
Andy Heise:Yeah.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, it's great.
Andy Heise:Okay, great, well, and just so, building on that a little bit, you could have just stayed at the house you were renting, continue your own private studio, 98 students a week, like you could. Just you could have just kept doing that, right, but. But you had a broader, bigger vision for Aurora, for this, for this arts community, for this teaching studio, for this space. When did that vision, sort of where did the vision come from and when did it start to take shape?
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:This is a really I love this question Because you know it's full of mysteries. And true, most people have some memories of visions when they were young. But I clearly remember sitting at the cafeteria at UCLA where you could only afford the daily burrito because it was $1.35, and you could pack it up with as much as you wanted. I thought that's the best deal and I ate that every day and you know you're with your studio mates who are studying the same. I had a chance to study with Vitaly Margulis, who's no longer alive, but he was an absolute legendary teacher from St Petersburg, russia. I knew every single person, I mean, and he heard his students. At the time, his studio at UCLA was made up of all international students. People were coming to study with him from all over the world and we were discussing some of the problems with academia. I hope I'm not stepping on toes, but you know and some of the.
Andy Heise:What are you talking about?
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:Some of the things that hold students back, et cetera. And I was telling them at that time, you know what I have a feeling one day we'll have our own, I want to have my own music school, this is for sure. And so I remember, um, you know, when you're a broke student, you, I was going to cim and I wanted, you know, sometimes students get into network marketing schemes and all kinds of stuff and they go into business meetings and they say, if you had all the money and five years only, what would you do? I would get my music school going, you know. So this was in my head for a long, long time. There was no question that I wanted to do it. It was just a win, yeah, you know. So it happened. And you get to that number. Then the button goes off and your brain say time to go, this is the time. So it was.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:It was crazy because you had to look for a facility. You have to do the workout, the build out. You don't have some people start a business with great financials and they have backups and parents or some someone who's donating thing. I'm a perfect story of total broke person starting something from zero. Credit score 425 no one would have given me one cent. So you know, being able to find a rent so inexpensive because the the guy who rented this building had no clue what he had. You know, I mean it's just what.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:Our second floor, 17 steps. Every step you take you're not sure you can go to the next. It cracks so much. My piano movers sweated bullets to get pianos up there. But then you have the chance to see an empty floor and say wow, seven rooms can fit there. I can put the two-by-fours and drywall. So I would do teaching all day and all-night construction myself with. You know, obviously some helps and some friends and there's a lot of support for this. Always it's a wonderful thing. But doing all that construction, I mean I put all the drywalls backwards. I mean my painting job was cute, you would have you know.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:So it was very much you know, let's see how we can do this. And my soundproofing compared to today in my facility I'm thinking it's so funny. I put foam and and my soundproofing compared to today in my facility I'm I'm thinking it's so funny. I put foam in there for for soundproofing did not work at all. But you, you, you're excited because you think, oh my gosh, I did everything for soundproofing that's right, did you say you?
Nick Petrella:you installed the drywall backwards. Yeah, okay, did you leave it that way? Uh, yes, it's too late, but I mean I knew I mean I think I knew paint can't yeah, I mean we did whatever.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:It was very uh, like the walls are a little bit, a little bit like this instead of straight, but um, I think no one cared because it was so overwhelmingly a happy place. People knew. I mean, if I'm excited now and your broadcast it's amplified 100 times on the grand opening and I remember for one month when I did the construction, we had a deadline right. We had to get the opening going. You do a ton of mailers. Three 4,000 people get this mail that there's a new school opening with this and this vision in terms of classes, et cetera. So one month and I think I slept average half an hour a night, so I collapsed after the grand opening.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:I have no memory of what's happened after that opening. I have no memory of what's happened after that, but we make it with music and food and people could see how every room had a grand piano, which was a piano room, and you'd have the teachers who you hired say you know we're going to have a grand opening, you will be there, people can see you how to teach with open doors. It's going to be noisy, but just ignore it, keep going. And it really worked. It really worked Because once you have 98 students, you have enough network for some of the siblings that wanna try different instruments to begin with. That's the bit. So after grand opening, I think we jumped pretty quick 280 or so so, and then it just grew from that.
Nick Petrella:How many of those did you teach?
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:Of the extras.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, total. Like how many of those did you were in yours.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:I mean, at that point I'm still at like 95, 98 students. And then you, you gradually give it. So what happens is you, you hire new teachers so that you can give them your students, et cetera. Yes, and then the whole thing comes about. You know methods and how you find your teachers, or joining you, et cetera.
Andy Heise:Right, yeah, we're going to talk about that. So did you then move into more of the running the business versus giving the lessons at that point?
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:Actually I gradually did, but you know I never yes, sometimes you have to sit behind a desk because you don't have a choice but I think what I was able to do is take care of things before I teach, take care of things after, after, yes, and it's really still kind of the same format. I tried not teaching for a while and, of course, I gave a couple of births in the middle. So I had an 18-year-old daughter and actually I have to say that you know I went through so many different family versions. So if someone wants to give hope, I will be giving them hope for sure, because you know I was married previously and, yes, my ex-husband had some help in the office front at that point. But then, you know, you go through divorce and you have a little baby and a little child and then you get married again and your family explodes and we have five kids and all that stuff.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:So there has been moments where I barely taught and I turned into a witch, because it's such a necessary thing for not just for me, for the students and to be a leadership person in showing what is the expectation. I think it's very important If Vera can do it. I can do it. If Vera is doing it, I guess we all have to do it. If Vera is meeting the performance quota, oh my gosh, I guess I have to do it too. So you know, it is very important. I think it does. Eventually, people remember that you were an amazing teacher and that's why you had the school.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:But I think it's very important that they see it every day.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, how many students do you teach currently? 48. Yeah. How many students do you teach currently? 48. Yeah, so you're spending a lot of time on the business. That's still huge, yeah.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:Yes, absolutely so. I do five days a week teaching and then before I'm here and, you know, helping the administration take care of things and whatever needs to be done. But the model that I like about this because you know a lot of business owners and I'm part of different kind of consulting for music schools is that they are running the business all day long and they're, you know, involved in administration. And then, how to take yourself out, my administration team is forced to take care of things and figure things out while I'm shoved away in a room Emergency.
Andy Heise:Doing podcast interviews and things. Yeah, exactly, but also I mean they can come in.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:You know, emergency, we need you to sign a check. We make it fun. The child is like well, how much do you think I should write? Should I write it to you? No, Okay, you know. So I make sure that any interruption is very engaging for the student and the parent. But in general, what's amazing about that is that they are absolutely self-sufficiently running the business. So if something would happen to me and I couldn't teach, everything else would still run, still move. And that's actually what you want, I think.
Nick Petrella:That's great. I can just imagine you putting up drywall. Yeah, no, don't I almost fell on the ladder. All that you literally bootstrapped and you have sweat equity in there and I'm wondering, when you look back and what you learned at music school. Now they don't teach drywall at music school, but what would you wish you had learned that could make your job easier, or at least at the growth aspect of it?
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:I think you know I read this. Uh, I mean I I think it's a fabulous question. It's just that the list would go on too long, I think. Yeah, I think the biggest thing that they don't teach children. I mean I call them kids because they're 20s, right, so they're 18. I call them kids so those young generation that go to universities and conservatories today or at my time.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:There is nothing talked about how you are, how you have to understand human beings, your audience number one. Let's just do that. Your audience how to recognize needs in an audience, how to recognize needs of human beings around you, how to find your niche and just go for that, instead of trying to chase everything that someone else advertises, you know, instead of trying to chase everything that someone else advertises, you know. So, because obviously they have to recognize that the academia is advertising for themselves. This is a self-feeding program, right? They need to recognize what is for them, their niche, and go for it, even if it's not a popular rap. You know? No-transcript that part.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:At one point I did that, but I think I recognize that there's something extremely special happening when I'm engaged with a child or a student, you know, and it's it became at one point beyond me because I created this method that a lot of my teachers are trained and people come from really far to be part of that approach to music. And it's not just the material itself, it's the coaching on how to present it. So, yeah, you've got to recognize, if you're able to engage a three-year-old in diapers and no one was before or there's a nonverbal, autistic kid who first time speaks ever in their life with you and you're the only one who can make them do that, then there's something going on that's different and you just don't have to push the pedal always for what the books says that you should. So I think that's, that's a it's an important thing.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:But I think people skills and interpersonal skills for musicians are very important because they spend so much time with themselves, which is great. They are very mono-minded, monocentric-minded, which is wonderful. That's why they achieve what they achieve. But the other side of their brain is left behind and that has to be caught up a little bit. So I think universities and conservatories need to do interpersonal kind of a business course where that is going to save their life, no matter what path they're going to do, whether they're going to run a nonprofit, with concert series and all that. Understanding customer service basics, understanding how to connect and recognize needs that's what I think.
Nick Petrella:That's great. That's great. Yeah, engagement and empathy.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:Absolutely.
Andy Heise:So we've talked a little bit about this, but building a school like Aurora must have come with its fair share of challenges. Oh yeah, absolutely. Can you think of a specific challenge that you'd be willing to share, and what it was and how you overcame that challenge?
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:I mean, besides all the little challenges every day and the fires, that you have to put out right.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:I mean, there was always some turning points, right? People always ask oh, how come, how did you do this beautiful concert hall that we have and I don't know if you want me to show you later. It seats 200 people. It's a beautiful one, but nothing comes out of either. Just randomly, you just don't start something because it's so painful and so hard. If it would not be hard, everybody would have a concert hall. But because it's hard, this doesn't right. But I want to tell you the story. What ignited it? Because it came from a very strong pain point, right.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:So what I established in the beginning of the stages where we had this really nice like after the drywall thing of a second floor, I found a place in 2006, just three years later, where something it was an old doctor's office, l-shaped wrench building, just literally examining rooms, which would be perfect. I just had to take the sinks out. There was a reception already established, beautiful. 2006 was right before the crash, so they still had lots of real estate, so I was able to snatch that pretty well and that was great. I had to do some simple construction for that. But for you to have a music school that grows this fast, that what you're doing for that is, you have more people staying with you, then come in. You know what I mean. It doesn't matter how many people come in. If that same amount of people quit and go, you're not going to grow the reason they stay? Because I established a very unique concert program, recital format, a recital format that they're very much awarded. People can participate. There is a guessing game on what they hear. The little sibling is going to get some kind of cute little toy. Right now they'd be called the magic pencils, but in the past they would be like lizards that you could throw or whatever it is. Things are flying in the audience and it's super engaging and the energy is very high and the amount of different awards the kids can get for different placement of where they are, and then featuring teachers at the end, et cetera.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:So I had to negotiate with local clubs for that. So Barrington Golf Club generously, they let me have four of their weekends and you know they adjusted my schedule based on their golf season, et cetera. I want you to imagine having four, five, six, seven shows after each other and they would refill the coffee and cookies and all that. And you know we, you know I would just vacuum in between, but they had a Yamaha Grand Piano so I could use that facility. Same arrangement we had for rock concert for the Walden Barn and in their dance movie theater. Place for the rock concerts and for chamber music at the Barn, which is a restaurant, was closed on Sunday. Very kind of, authentic, beautiful. They had a old Steinway piano there as well, so we could use that as well. So I was everywhere, but in exchange I would be playing for their clients whenever they wanted to. So I was, I think, close to 67 times in clubs and that's what I did all night. Friday, saturdays, right oh my gosh.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:Well, 2008 happened and a lot of real estate crashes and a lot of things went on bankruptcy, right, right. And Barrington Golf Club was one of them. We had no idea, and I'm sure you know Ahuja the Ahuja Hospital is named from them Beachwood. He's the one who purchased this on auction. Barrington Golf Club was on auction. I had no idea that was going on.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:And Monty Ahuja is a really awesome guy, but he's in the auto business and he made his money in the auto business and he's a millionaire now and he looked at the books and says what's this recital thing? How much money does it make? Uh-huh. So the next day I'm getting a phone call hey Vera, it was great having you, but the next year, starting in 2009, we're not going to be able to take on recitals. So here I am.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:My entire business is based on performing and teaching children and adults to get ready for performance opportunities, and that's what I'm providing every three months, right? So that's already distinguished us that I'm willing to do something not every six months, but every three months, right? Most music schools have two times. We do it three times, and same thing for chamber music and same thing for rock concerts. So there's a 12-week period of turnover for everything that you learn. So there is two ways to go about a problem like that. You can shy away from it and say, well, okay, I'm going to look for other places. Or I can say, no way, that's the best place I can have. I have to figure it out. Who is the boss here? So I was very, very blessed.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:I don't know if you remember Senator George Vojnovich, who was the governor at one point. He's no longer alive, but he's just an awesome guy. He would fly in from Washington to see his grandkids on these recitals and he was really. I didn't know, I'd find this out with phone calls. And eventually, you know, I find out Because his son said yeah, I think you should call my dad, I think he can help you. They kind of hang out with Monty Ahuja on a regular basis. So I called him and said can you help me out? I called him and said can you help me out on this? And he took one lunch and Monty called me in person and said don't worry, man, we're just going to make it happen for you. And somehow I was treated like a queen after that, no problem.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:And so I think the story in this is that, I think, because it took a long time to figure out what to do. Right, it would have been easy to say, okay, what other facilities can we pursue, and it's just changed. Versus you say, okay, there's a mod, I have to. But I promised myself I'll never be in this situation, ever again. And so that's when I said I got to plan this concert hall. That sounds impossible. I mean, my husband could tell you he's from France. He said, Vera, you are crazy. There's no way our financials are even close to do something like that. But I said I got to start planning now. So I started planning right then, and 2015 is when everything started. You know, I closed the loan finally, and then 16, we moved in here. Wow. So, yeah, that itself had the ups and downs, but you just have to pursue things very strongly to the point where there's no plan B. You can't have a plan A and a plan B. It's only plan.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:A and that's it.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, and we're going to unpack some of this stuff in in upcoming questions. Yeah, what were the considerations you had when you selected the site of your building?
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:Oh yeah, so I touched on this a little bit Is Aurora felt? You know? I mean, some people are very rational and calculate everything and they go on the market research and they look at every single household income and blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm not that type of person. I think you already figured it out From the first time I opened my mouth. I'm very much intuitive and into feelings and listening to my guts, and every business is different, based on their owner, of course. So when I'm driving around, I'm trying to kind of soak in how the neighborhoods feel and I loved the feel to Aurora. It was quaint, I don't know. Something was like wow, this is it, this is where I need to be. Besides the fact that I mentioned that there was no competition, that really was also a very big factor. Yeah, but you could have gone to Manoway, you could have gone to Bainbridge area. You know the Chigrin under Chigrin Falls. There's also still nothing there really. But I think what?
Nick Petrella:I like Closer to Cleveland. Hmm, it's closer to Cleveland.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:Yes, yes, yes, I loved it. I just went around Aurora and I just had this feeling. You know, this is it. Sometimes you just have to really trust your guts. Yeah yeah, that's how it works.
Andy Heise:Sure. So music education, music schools, have seen a lot of changes in recent years. Mostly, I think a lot of that was expedited by the pandemic. A lot have moved to digital tools and online classes and things like that. Has Aurora Music School adapted to any of those changes, or how do you uh incorporate those into your business?
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:oh yeah, absolutely covid. I think it's like a traumatic word now for everybody, right. The first uh, two weeks, I think, we lost 425 students. So it was. It was crazy, but we knew we had to go on. At that that point we were on Zoom, right. Everybody's changed to Zoom. Good for Zoom man. These guys have made so much money, almost like they knew it ahead. You know it's great. So we are very happy for Zoom for their business, but not that happy for ours, right, because it's horrible for music.
Andy Heise:Yeah right.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:Yeah, because it's horrible for music. Yeah, right, yeah, so you know, yes, as soon as I converted everybody to Zoom for the time being for I also knew one thing is that I got to make sure that my motivation is to get back everybody as soon as possible. I did not want to adapt to this as a new normal. No way, jose. I said what can I put in place that people feel more comfortable? I didn't cancel one event. I restructured it, pushed it back, separated people, you know, smaller recitals, more.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:Whatever I needed to do, I brought in these amazing purifiers from Anthem IQ Air, it's called. They're manufactured in Germany and, I think, engineered in Switzerland or the other way around, I don't know, but you get the Alpen amazing air in your room. It really, you know, kills all bacterias and replenishes the air. We never had any problems spreading at the school because all the classrooms had this going on. And then I did a SOI treatment. In the hall I had a spraying equipment that, after a flute player or a singer, I'd spray, and I recall that the treatment made it a really fun process, everybody laughing and then we just kept going. So, but it has a lot of salt in it and, of course, eventually killed my microphones on the stage so I had to replace that, but that's not a problem. So, yes, we did a lot of adopting.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:I think the best thing that came out of COVID is some of the systems that we had to streamline. We still keep. We used to not have means. This is the dress rehearsal time to really try out everything on stage before the big moment. That really worked very well.
Vera Holczer-Waroquet:And then also we have done research for a platform Rock Out Live that's the name of it. It's a really great platform for online. It's really designed for teaching online Rock Out Live. It's great because you can actually talk at the same time as they're playing. Woo-hoo how about that? And there's no drop out for bass and high notes. And it works to the point where you can accommodate some like. We have students who moved to Seattle or some other places and they still take lessons or they would like to continue. We still encourage transitioning to local, but we definitely always hear for that time period when they don't have teachers yet. I mean, sometimes we do flute lessons for two, three years until they find someone local. That's fine, but we're always very happy for them if they do. The in-person connection is irreplaceable. How do you do chamber music online?
Nick Petrella:You know, At this time. Yeah, that's right, it's pretty challenging.
Andy Heise:Yeah Well, and there's something to like if you've taken lessons with someone for a long time and they've kind of helped you get to where you are, they know something about you that you know new teachers won't know about you. So I think being able to maintain that connection is super important.
Nick Petrella:Absolutely, absolutely, yeah. And it's engagement again, yeah.
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