Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
#317: Jeremy Rubenstein (Founder of Box Out Productions) (pt. 1 of 2)
Today we released part one of our interview with Jeremy Rubenstein. He’s a distinguished educator, playwright and social entrepreneur, best known for his innovative approach to bullying prevention through interactive theater. He founded Box Out Productions, LLC in 2008 to blend his love for theater with bullying prevention techniques.
Each year his company reaches over 100,000 students, parents and faculty and has been widely covered in the national media for its distinctive approach in helping communities become proactive with bullying prevention.
Please tune in to hear how Jeremy built his business from the ground up, and how he uses entertainment to engage with students on a very important subject. https://www.boxoutbullying.com/
Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast. Making art work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.
Andy Heise:Hi Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners. My name is Andy Heise.
Nick Petrella:And I'm Nick Petrella. Jeremy Rubenstein is with us today. He's a distinguished educator, playwright and social entrepreneur, best known for his innovative approach to bullying prevention through interactive theater. He founded Box Out Productions LLC in 2008 to blend his love for theater with bullying prevention techniques. 2008, to blend his love for theater with bullying prevention techniques. Each year, his company reaches over 100,000 students, parents and faculty and has been widely covered in the national media for its distinctive approach to helping communities become proactive with bullying prevention. You can read more about Jeremy and Box Out Bullying in the show notes. Thanks so much for being on the podcast, jeremy.
Jeremy Rubenstein:Hey, thank you guys. Happy to be here.
Nick Petrella:I read that you starred in national tours and in films, so let's begin by having you tell us what you did before founding your company and why you decided to focus on bullying.
Jeremy Rubenstein:Sure, yeah, so, oh, my gosh. So I've been doing this since 2008. So to think of anything before that is like a whole new chapter. What's really cool about this is, I feel like everything that I've done has kind of led up to me starting a production company and focusing on like what I do that combines like education and theater. I mean, even just to go back, back, I grew up in Santa Monica, so even that experience of I might be dating myself, but you know I went to the same preschool as Michael Keaton's kids, so you know just kind of being like in that environment of creatives.
Jeremy Rubenstein:I don't remember much. I do remember I had one play date over at his house and I distinctly remember he had like this was at a time I think it was before Batman, it was like Mr Mom kind of time. So I distinctly remember he had like a big spiral staircase and like he had, like him and his kid had like a toy, some like a toy, like what's that? Things that cuts A chainsaw, a toy chainsaw, and I remember going after that with chainsaw choice chains on. I remember going after that, uh, with a chainsaw, uh, go figure, uh. So just even growing up in that kind of environment even with, like elementary school, uh, when we moved up past that, being in the same classes is, um, uh, showrunners and, like you know, stress uh, playwrights and screenwriters, uh, for I remember Benji the hunted, uh was just kind of cool with like that kind of environment. Um, so, flash forward, moved to Pennsylvania, um, and I that was a big transition to go, like you know, eight lane uh super freeway to like a single, uh dirt road with how, uh, with cow manure and horse manure on it, horse and buggy yeah, horse and buggy, you got it. But just, I always was just so like fascinated and just drawn to the theater. I mean, even this was back in Los Angeles, the school that I went to. It was like an all Jewish day school and our cantor was like an inspiring playwright. So we would do these adaptations. Instead of Hello Dolly, it was like Hello Golem. So we would do these musicals.
Jeremy Rubenstein:And when I was younger I had the worst speech impediment. I couldn't say my R's, s's, t's, z's. I had a lot of ear infections when I was younger and I was always tall. So they always cast me as like these parts and I remember, even at a young age after we did like these shows. You know people would come up to me they'd say, oh, you have the most perfect Yiddish accent, like on stage, and I was just talking, you know it was just my speech impediment, but still was like a way to to express myself, I guess, and for them to kind of like use that and like just through a lot of her name was Janet Paulson, who worked with me from, I think, like kindergarten until like fourth grade when we moved back east. And I still keep in touch with her, actually we she sent me a very heartfelt email not too long ago when we were doing a tour in Los Angeles and I was presenting during one of my parent workshops there, like, hey, you might not remember me, but and yeah, so I still remember her. So, janet, if you're listening to this, thank you for all the work that you did.
Jeremy Rubenstein:So Lancaster, pennsylvania, reached, I still kept performing, uh, and I think where our connection is, um Nick, is like through Penn state, uh, where I remember auditioning for uh three universities, um Carnegie Mellon, nyu and Penn state, because, uh, they have a specific, you know, style of acting that I wanted to study, uh, and you know I ended up going to the school where I could graduate with little debt, if that makes sense. And while I was there, it was fantastic. I had a graduating class of, I think, maybe under 25, right, and that's like Penn State. So I had all the access to awesome like and resources and like, even with the film department being in, like you know, small films and also main stage shows, because, again, I was six foot two, so like, even as, like a sophomore, I got like main stage opportunities, which was unheard of. I got like main stage opportunities, which was unheard of. And because I was six foot two, like, I was always usually cast as the villain, which was, you know, something that I was a stretch for me. So I had to do like a lot of research on, like you know, how to make this believable.
Jeremy Rubenstein:And I, and I remember in these classes, while I was performing like you know, I came in as a performance major I had to audition. You know my professors were like you know you have a director's eye which you know basically meant I wasn't a good actor. So, oh, interesting, yeah, no, like, and you know, so it got to a point where, I think it was probably after my sophomore year I didn't get passed on to the next level of acting. So I decided you know I'm, I came in with 12 credits with AP classes I'm taking like I graduated with a double major and a minor. So after like I wasn't passed on camera, you know, and that was at a time I think we came up with like a podcast before there were podcasts kind of thing like a weekend variety show. So I graduated with like a double major and a minor in four years, taking like average 20, 21 credits per semester, which is my thing. It was a lot.
Jeremy Rubenstein:But what was great is, you know you find those professors that you just want to study with. So you know you create these independent studies and, you know, take those classes that you really like. And yeah, my head was in a book the entire time. So I guess, to circle back to your question, so I was before going into this, I graduated and then I immediately got some job in like Equity Summerstock Theater in Vermont. I then it was actually before. Then it was Professor Mark Olson, who I think now is in Juilliard, and he was like my mentor.
Jeremy Rubenstein:I really excelled at the for lack of a better term the bastardizations of theater, so mime and clowning. So he turned me on to Abner Eisenberg, who I studied with him. It's like a hippie comedy called the Celebration Barn Theater. So I went to clown college, if not like a clown intensive, and I was the youngest one there. So people were coming into this note having like full on acts that they wanted to workshop and I had no idea what, what I was doing.
Jeremy Rubenstein:So I'm coming up with like these acts while I was there but I just learned, you know, you learn like in those like parts during like the workshops, but then it's like the afterwards when you're just trying to pick up new skills. So one, uh, one of my good friends there, brent uh, who he kind of taught me how to juggle. You know, and it was when he taught me how to juggle it was five minutes and it was just super intensive where it was like give me three or something, one, two, three, catch, catch, catch, catch. So I get to put that on my resume If you can catch like five times. Like okay, you know I can juggle so fast forward. I graduate from college, I do some equity theater in Vermont, I do some independent theater elsewhere, I'm in some like you know, but then I'm cast, as in a national juggling tour, without knowing how to juggle, and that was an experience.
Nick Petrella:So help me with the math on that. How was that possible? What were you doing?
Jeremy Rubenstein:What was I doing? Well, let me tell you about the audition. So I think they were desperate. So they called me and I had auditioned before. So they were like, okay, you nailed the monologue, here are clubs, here are balls. And I was like, okay, let's try this. Okay, you nailed the monologue, here are clubs, here are balls here. And I was like, okay, let's try this. So I pick up the balls and I could do like the five catches, like, okay, let's move on to clubs. Okay, so I'm picking up like the clubs and I'm just dropping left and right, but because of my clowning background with just like nuts, that's interesting, oh, I know. So I'm trying to like solve this problem of me not knowing how to juggle.
Jeremy Rubenstein:So I juggling audition and during a juggling audition and I end up, I think remember just making like a routine of just putting stuff on the floor and, you know, juggling through there and they said I think I just won them over with the comedy of it. So they, they took a, they took a risk and they casted me for it. Um, and then they just gave me a lot of videos and a lot of training and it was a two person show. The show was called food play, um, and I didn't know this at the time. So they ranked jugglers and the person they cast my, my co-actor, uh, his name Michael Karras. Um, at the time they ranked jugglers and I think he was maybe 25th best juggler in the country. And again, we just graduated from college, young guy super into it. So we, like he taught me all this stuff going into it. So you know, give me three or something. I'm still pretty good with juggling. Um, and that was a show that was so um, we were sponsored by, uh, a major um supermarket food chain, uh, so we toured. It was an educational theater, so we toured schools all throughout new England. Uh, I was coach of the U S Olympic juggling team and his name was Johnny junk food, and it was my job as coach to like put them on the right path. Uh. So, yeah, uh, I I saw how useful it was as either as a medium to really reach kids too, so I did a year with them. That was, I think, 2008,. 2009,. My contract ends.
Jeremy Rubenstein:I get cast for the US premiere of a show called the Aluminum Show. It was from Israel, it was kind of like or they would call it the Aluminium Show. So I said you might want to change the title. I was dating, I think, one of the producers' nieces at the time, so I got a gig just like that. So we were at the then Trump Plaza Casino in Atlantic City putting on this show, the aluminum show. They are actually back in the country. I'm going to see them sometime in February, so I'm there and I am just I don't fit in with anybody. You know they're the international cast, so I really get connected to the American production staff, you know. So the show is kind of like Stomp meets Blue man Group with like a lot of interactive things and I'm like the technician, so it's my job to like make sure like things are where they're supposed to be.
Jeremy Rubenstein:Working with that company was great on a lot of like aspects, but it really made me like think great on a lot of like aspects, but it really made me like think I got to start my own thing. You know, like this is something that I am tired of working for other organizations, I really want to do my own thing. So I remember taking the summer off to try to do a lot of research. So here I am, combining my background in journalism, in theater and even before all this, I always have a love of education. I come from a family of educators. I was a teaching artist through the Fulton Opera House here in Lancaster, pennsylvania. I've taught like on all levels, like from elementary through college, uh, and I and again through this, uh, in seeing theater and how it can like impact kids, uh, I decided to do some research and found so I had a non-compete with like the, the organization that I wouldn't do anything with nutrition.
Jeremy Rubenstein:So I'm like that's out, uh. So I remember researching at the time, like where a lot of the federal grants were going towards. Number one was nutrition. Couldn't do that, uh. Two was, uh, do you remember the dare program like growing up? So there was, you know, drug cessation, uh. Alcohol cessation Uh. They've since, I believe, totally defunded and cut that because they realized how it backfired.
Nick Petrella:So I think you're right.
Jeremy Rubenstein:Yeah, so I and I think. Third was something called character education, and I wasn't sure exactly what that meant, but I do know that when I was teaching there was a lot of I. Just I didn't like how you know my admin was focusing on at the school I was at, you know, reading, writing, arithmetic, and not so much on what it means to be a good friend, like how to have empathy, passion and care. So I decided to really focus on this idea of you know, teaching that you know what bullying is and what it isn't, how to stand up for somebody in need. So I got lucky.
Jeremy Rubenstein:I was writing the show, I think, either on an Amtrak, like getting the idea of, like you know, basically a two-person like trunk show, vaudeville trunk show, relying on, like my clowning and theater experience of just trying to um, use this, I, I gotta with my connection with the aluminum show. Uh, I met up with he's still with me since 2008 eddie britain, who's been my master propsman technician, coming up with like the exact, like how this box is supposed to work, of opening and closing and like making it like fit. So, yeah, I, I, I used all these resources and we debuted in 2008 and it's been like a rollercoaster since then.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, well, you know now this makes sense because when we first met, when I looked into you, I was thinking, well, was he on a crime drama series? And then all of a sudden decided he wanted to go to bullying. And I know the Andy sometimes brings up you know, effectuation and things like that which he may talk about, but it it totally makes your progression now makes sense.
Jeremy Rubenstein:Oh yeah, no, like. So I I felt like I did as a artist, as a performer, going into this, I tried, I did everything I wanted to do in my career you know, national tours, uh, equity, non-equity theater, a casino show and then I felt like I really wanted to do something. That was that I was passionate about that at the time nobody was doing and that I found that I think there was a great opportunity to make a difference and make a living.
Andy Heise:Yeah, yeah, and I'm curious, how did you? So you had a sort of a knack for doing research and that sort of thing, so you went to see what is the federal government funding in terms of of school programming, right? So that that was sort of one of your initial research questions that you were going after. But how did you know to do that? Like, did the? Was the? The nutrition thing was that? I know you said it was through a grocery store, but did it also have some federal funding attached to it? Like, how did that, that idea come to you?
Jeremy Rubenstein:cast in a show called Search and Destroy where they casted me as a character, pomfilo, who was a Honduran drug dealer. You know, I was like they're gonna laugh at me like when I go out, but okay, I'm gonna. So I got to research the heck out of this. Just so happened that somebody on my dorm floor knew an RA from Honduras, so I reached out to him. I wanted to get this accent down because I was just doing like a bad Tony Montana like impression. But then there were these like I remember lines about like hey, you know, character asks where are you from? And I remember saying like hey, you know, I'm from Hampstead, it's in America. And I was told then from that RA that you know, like it's a very North American Anglo thing to think there's a difference between North and South America, because we're taught in Honduras it's just America, you know. So I'm like okay, so I go in there telling my director all this stuff that I've researched, like even for like I'm in one scene and I just really impressed him with that. You know like, okay, this kid's going somewhere spending all this time into this. So I take that knowledge into this of trying to find the entire story of this.
Jeremy Rubenstein:So with the organization. I know they had big corporate sponsors. They'd been around for 25 years. If I was starting out, there was no way I would get any kind of corporate sponsorship. So where it came to me was like okay, I have to come up with an idea or a topic that resonates with kids, that resonates with adults, that everybody has, I think, a story with whether they experienced it or witnessed it or knew somebody that had it. But at the same time you know it needed to be somewhat like there had to be an eye on it, you know. So that's where it kind of came like okay, where are these grants coming from? Where's the emphasis for this? So I think that's where it came from.
Andy Heise:That's great, yeah. And so you started Box, was it initially called? Did you go into it saying I'm going to start a company called box out bowling or box out productions, or did that evolve over time?
Jeremy Rubenstein:So so that that, uh it, it evolved. So I was the names are the most important things. So, uh, you know, especially from a creative standpoint, where I kind of wanted it to kind of like just pop and stand out. So originally, like I, when I thought about like a trunk show and you know, vod, so I'm like, okay, what if we call it? It used to be called Box Out the Bully. So even before that I remember I'm at home and I'm going over these concepts Even before I have the title for a script. Here's what's going on. It's a two-person show. Characters' names were Tom and Jerry, something that adults and kids can still recognize and identify with, and their family, their cousins, and it's about their trials and tribulations.
Jeremy Rubenstein:But at the same time, we wanted to make sure that we avoided certain words. So we don't want to give labels, never use the word bully, never use the word victim, because in my research I wanted to interview those like bullying prevention experts at the time. So the show used to be called, you know, box Out the Bully. Then, researching it, I was like, no, we don't want to focus on the label, we want to the action, because it's the behavior which you can correct.
Jeremy Rubenstein:And when we talk about box out, well, there are a couple levels there. I'm six foot two basketball I really enjoy. There's actually a maneuver when you're trying to like box out your opponent from means, you know, getting in a rebound or a layup to prevent them from kind of attaining their goal. Right, when I was student teaching and I remember always at recess I would see students kind of circle up and you know preventing other kids from joining in, as if they were trying to box them out from being included. So when I'm thinking about when we talk about to box out bullying, it's trying to prevent bullying from attaining its goal of making school less fun, joyful or safe. So you know it used to be box out the bully. Then after some research it was that to box out bullying, but yeah, it was, it stuck.
Nick Petrella:So that's great. So you have. You had a lot of research, a lot of information. You had a product for lack of a better word, how did you get those first gigs? How did you get those first gigs and how has that changed over the years?
Jeremy Rubenstein:Yeah. So I would recommend to any buddy starting out. And that was like no, like, what do you have in your corner? You know, like what's, what can you actually accomplish? So in college I was always told, like you know, come up with a one person show. You know, try to like make something of your own so you're not relying on somebody else. I had said before I come from a family of educators, so I remember doing our first show at my mom's Montessori as, like you know, just to see if this worked, and from there I remember we got some news coverage and from there, like somebody in the, I went I was living in New York, came back to workshop this in Lancaster, pennsylvania, and from there other educators had seen it. So that's how I kind of got my first gig and I got lucky in terms of just being at the right place at the right time, because I would say I started, I founded the company October 2008,. Already, schools had already booked things for the year, you know, 2009.
Jeremy Rubenstein:That's when bullying was kind of like, at least as a topic, was a whisper, but then it exploded into just like states now had to mandate the teaching of this in the classes and in the schools and they were looking out and already like I had already had somewhat of a product. It wasn't good. I definitely messed up that first year. I made so many mistakes you know if I could just sound issues, prop issues, actor issues and script issues so you make a lot of setbacks and then you learn from those and keep on moving forward with those additions. But I got those first gigs. I think we had a library gig which I remember just saying hey, if you allow us to advertise, we'll give you like free presentations. They gave us free presentations. Then they just were like sorry, we can't allow you to advertise. Okay, that's fine, but just through like having that like opening gig at my mom's Montessori, and then just that kind of like went from there. And then word of mouth is huge, especially in education.
Nick Petrella:And how has that changed over the years? How do you get the gigs now?
Jeremy Rubenstein:Yeah, so how we get it now. So, even after we got like those few like you know gigs and a lot of it was just word of mouth I remember we did a lot of you know mailers and like email marketing and you know marketing and going to conferences in person. That was huge. I remember these in-person conferences where you get to meet and then they bring us in, and so now, and there's the BC before COVID and now like everything else, I think now, because we already have like that reputation, we really don't advertise at all.
Jeremy Rubenstein:I mean, at this point I think they might just do like a simple Google search and then I think we might pop up. And then, like I think we might pop up, or they, these principals or admin, like might ask, like on some kind of like online forum hey, we're looking for this organization, like what do you have? And actually that's how I know we got into like a very exclusive school district because the principals had a meeting and then just kind of brought us up. So, yeah, I'd say it's great, it's fantastic. You have no idea how like many nights it's first starting out like oh no, we misspelled a word on like this email mailer and it goes out to educators and, like you know, they're very sticklers with like words and how they spell. So now it's like this either through SEO or just having a product, you know you're putting your years and your time.
Andy Heise:And you're putting your years and your time and you're there, so it's a lot. Do you navigate that balance, particularly when you started? But also, how do you maintain that today?
Jeremy Rubenstein:Yeah, no, there there's things that I didn't. I did not receive any training on how to run a business, writing invoices, making sure that we comply with W-9s and that we align with, like state mandates. So, yeah, like how QuickBooks work, taxes, yeah, so I much prefer to be, you know, in the rehearsal room. So there are some aspects that I still throw myself into for the business side. So I'm always directing, I'm always in the casting room too, and then, you know, there are things that I realize that I think this is a business. But then, to, you know, pursue the same artistic side.
Jeremy Rubenstein:You know, I'll do like a 24 hour play festival where I'll, like you know, be a director for something that's new, or I'll teach, you know, an eccentric performing class at a local college and stuff like that. But no, it's pretty fantastic that, you know, since 2008, we've kept basically the same script, made some additions here and there, but still, like, out of the thousands and thousands of performances, it's always like bringing in new actors and performers to, like, add their own spice to the characters too. So, yeah, I'd say, you know, focus on making sure you have a very good product that's number one before you can advertise, because, honestly, if you have a great product that advertises itself and then find those other things outside of work that I think you can expand to, Sure, well, and working with schools too.
Andy Heise:I mean there's sort of regulatory aspects to that and bureaucratic aspects to that, working in within school districts and that sort of thing. So although I suppose it helped that you had some educators in your house, that might help, maybe help navigate some of that.
Jeremy Rubenstein:Oh, no, absolutely. So you know, it's very important that you, you know, find out and again, this is the research what kind of policies or programs they already have in place. Out and again this is the research what kind of policies or programs they already have in place. Making sure that you know, while making it interactive and educational, because it can't be just a lecture. You know students, like everybody, likes to be entertained, so we want to give them a show. So this has to be something than just, like you know, reading a book or watching a video or just being lectured to. So, yeah, no, it's very important and we make sure that we align with any specific program that a school already has in existing or to make sure that we kind of build upon the good work they've already had too Sure.
Nick Petrella:So how quick do schools pay? Yeah, and the reason I'm asking, because I've done a lot of stuff, yeah oh, okay, yeah I was thinking, I was thinking about I. I've done a lot of stuff in various levels of schools right, and my personal experience is that it takes a long time. What's your experience?
Jeremy Rubenstein:it depends. Uh. So again we are. We are a national touring organization so we've done districts all over the country. So we make sure that in our contract you know like we work with the school, like are you 30?, are you 60?, like is it more? Like you know, an invoice is signed, so the good thing is you know, you know the school's not going anywhere.
Jeremy Rubenstein:So you know, there are times you, there are times you wait. I will say that you have to be a little bit more flexible when you work with New York City Department of Education or any like large entity and we are. But I will say, you know, there are some, I guess, nonprofits or other like NGOs that work with us to bring us into schools that it takes a while, like actually this last one, it took us seven months to get paid and we're, like you know, usually we're like net 60, like after services are rendered, right, right, yeah, so it's one of these things where you know they're wearing a lot of hats, so you kind of just so you deal with it. But for the most part, I'd say, aside from that, because, again, I've been doing this since 2008, for the most part they pay on time. If not in advance, oh, that's good, yeah, yeah, just make sure that you're very clear in your documents. Like, hey, we have to get paid by this time, if that's agreeable with you, but if not, then it's good to keep records of things.
Jeremy Rubenstein:I do remember. Before I brought on somebody to help me, there were schools that had gone years without paying us and I was like I'm an educator, I'm an actor. The whole business sense of just making sure that they pay wasn't on me. But yeah, then you have, and you have employees and you had to make sure we get paid, yeah.
Andy Heise:Yeah.
Jeremy Rubenstein:Yeah.
Nick Petrella:Yeah.
Andy Heise:And it's like it's like I'm, I'm doing the gigs, I'm I'm booking the stuff, I'm doing the shows, but why isn't this working? Well, there's there could some of those things like oh, I'm not following up on unpaid invoices and stuff like that.
Nick Petrella:And it's insidious, because if you're not up on it, you kind of forget about it, right, yeah, so you have to have something in place, yeah.
Jeremy Rubenstein:No, a lot of different hats. For that I would highly recommend like any kind of like invoicing system. You know, like a QuickBooks is very good, but yeah, like. And then also making sure that, hey, you know they send you an invoice, making sure that you know the the invoice number matches that number, and sending all that stuff in checks get lost in the mail, like you know. Okay, we need to like, make sure that we have a better understanding of how we process invoices. You know, make sure that they mail it to us. Don't hand it off to the actors when they're there. You know things get lost.
Nick Petrella:Yeah.
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