Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
#318: Jeremy Rubenstein (Founder of Box Out Productions) (pt. 2 of 2)
This week on the podcast is part two of our interview with Jeremy Rubenstein. He’s a distinguished educator, playwright and social entrepreneur, best known for his innovative approach to bullying prevention through interactive theater. He founded Box Out Productions, LLC in 2008 to blend his love for theater with bullying prevention techniques.
Each year his company reaches over 100,000 students, parents and faculty and has been widely covered in the national media for its distinctive approach in helping communities become proactive with bullying prevention.
Please tune in to hear how Jeremy built his business from the ground up, and how he uses entertainment to engage with students on a very important subject. https://www.boxoutbullying.com/
Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast. Making art work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.
Andy Heise:Hi Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners. My name is Andy Heise.
Nick Petrella:And I'm Nick Petrella. Jeremy Rubenstein is with us today. He's a distinguished educator, playwright and social entrepreneur, best known for his innovative approach to bullying prevention through interactive theater. He founded Box Out Productions LLC in 2008 to blend his love for theater with bullying prevention techniques. 2008, to blend his love for theater with bullying prevention techniques. Each year, his company reaches over 100,000 students, parents and faculty and has been widely covered in the national media for its distinctive approach to helping communities become proactive with bullying prevention. You can read more about Jeremy and Box Out Bullying in the show notes. Thanks so much for being on the podcast, jeremy.
Jeremy Rubenstein:Hey, thank you guys. Happy to be here.
Nick Petrella:In terms of your business model. Do you have one group of actors that travels nationally or do you have different groups in different regions?
Jeremy Rubenstein:No, that's a great question. So we are still our business model. There's the BC before COVID, and then what's going on now? Still like, believe it or not, we're still recovering from what happened with COVID, which shut us down because we work with schools and schools were all virtual. You know we had to totally like cease operations. There was a lot of push to put us to make like our show virtual, which I was against from day one because, you know, to make things live and interactive and actually be there totally like would compromise the integrity of the product that we had.
Jeremy Rubenstein:Now there are certain. So we have one core team that travels the country. Then we have specific other teams that come up for, let's say, in October, which is National Bullying Prevention Month, in September, which is like the start of the school. In February, like you know, new York City has like the Respect for All initiative. So there's Catholic Schools Week. So there are certain times when we're like double, triple booked that we bring in like certain teams.
Jeremy Rubenstein:But in terms of the model, I definitely like that. We have like really one core team because they bring it every single time and they're just very consistent. Before we used to fly them out. We are still now like before, we can go to do that. Now we're having them drive from place to place. So you know they'll do like gigs in Pittsburgh, ohio, detroit and so on and so forth, and you know, I definitely find that it's a chance for them to see the country, which is a great opportunity. I remember some advice I got in Penn State and the acting conservatory was no matter how much training you get, it won't make up for an ounce of life experience, absolutely yeah. So meanwhile, that was my senior year and I'm thinking my gosh. Why didn't you tell me this as a freshman? I would have gone out, I would have ordered, I would have liked. In the best way that you can do this is to travel. So yeah, is that?
Nick Petrella:what you? Is that what you use to bring people into your organization? You get to travel and see the country.
Jeremy Rubenstein:It's definitely a part by car, yeah yeah, well, you know what it's yes and no. So it's, you know, I have a conversation with them like, hey, if you have a spouse or significant other, it's something that's very, it's an important conversation that you have with them. Sure, it will be on the road, for, you know, these young actors that are coming in, that were, you know, in lockdown, that are coming up that this is an amazing opportunity to visit, and they get paid for it too. Yeah, no, it's very so part of this, you know, we make sure that we pay them above industry standard and also, you know, make sure that we provide, like, cool accommodations for them too. So, yeah, that's part of the, because, you know there are some people that don't want to travel and others just like this is my thing.
Jeremy Rubenstein:Yes, yeah.
Andy Heise:Yeah, Great. So when you're hiring that team of performers, what? What are you looking for? Obviously, they need to be open to traveling, but what other? What other attributes are you looking for in those performers?
Jeremy Rubenstein:Yeah, so yeah, casting has always been like a sticking point for me, because when I I I tend to cast people in the past where I was just I've had trouble. You know, like, I think that they like are great for the job. But then you know, from those mistakes I've realized you know you need somebody that that is kind, that is patient, um, and that's mentally stable. Uh, you know, if you can get two out of three, that's okay. To find all three, that's perfect. Uh, in addition to all of that, you know, we need to make sure that they really, truly believe, uh, in what they do and how like our method can do this, and they need to be funny like. So, one of our while this is a very serious issue, uh, we want to make this a celebration. We focus on like the good work. So any kind of background in vaudeville or clowning or just interactive life theater is like also a plus, but also just the kindness and the patience I have to say is like number one.
Andy Heise:Yeah, how do you vet that? How do you know if someone's kind and patient?
Jeremy Rubenstein:Yeah, it's tough. I remember I guess I can say even in this season I had an actor drop out over a salad and I still like yeah, so it was during one of these rehearsal periods on a Friday and it was a long rehearsal and I remember I'm the director, I go guys, we've got a long rehearsal, Let me cover lunch for you guys. What do you want? One actor said you know whatever. Other actor said give me something light, without anything else. So I'm like OK, I go out, I get one of the actors you know he's from the Midwest, so he likes burgers. I gave him a burger. The other actor said want something light? I give him, like a nice salad. And that Sunday I remember getting an email from him saying I'm quitting the project. I was very insulted that you gave me a salad. I was hungry the entire time, you know. So as I tell my production staff this, they said you know, people are the worst, you know like. You know, stop doing nice things for people. Then others were like hey, I think you dodged a bullet there, Jeremy, because it sounds like it. Yeah, yeah, Because you know in terms. So you know in terms.
Jeremy Rubenstein:But then we ended up doing like an emergency recast, found an amazing actor. I had to kind of throw myself into the role. So we're traveling, um, you know, he's in the car learning the lines as I'm going on stage for him, like for the first like two weeks, which was actually something that I think I'm going to now implement that I get to like actually be there, like with the actors in person, like for the first two weeks, to make sure that everything is like uh run smooth, that they like feel supported, Uh. So there was actually like a real blessing in disguise, and we're getting amazing reviews now. Um, so I'm still trying to figure out how to really figure out that, Cause, you know, they'll say whatever they want, I guess, in the interview process. Um, so, yeah, but I definitely will like learn, you know, and I think I'll have like a second opinion of somebody else too.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, Plus to Andy's point, these are actors, so in a way they're used to making stuff up.
Jeremy Rubenstein:Right, yeah, yeah, and you know, and being genuine about it, Exactly. So, yeah, no, it's I, but I'm definitely learning because I think and this is, I think, one of the questions that we ask at the end like you know what some of the advice that people give, and I remember, just after this whole ordeal, somebody had told me, think like a farmer, and I'm like what do you mean by that? So he actually showed me this meme. Like you know, make sure that you select the crops that are good for the soil. So I and that's just one of the components that I really need to make sure that you know we bring in talent that will excel in this kind of environment.
Andy Heise:Yeah, well, and now you have a natural experiment that you can run during when, after you hire them, bring them in for rehearsals, you say I'm gonna go get lunch, what would you like?
Jeremy Rubenstein:yeah, and you bring them something else so or you know what, see what happens somehow. I think it's on me where I should have said can you clarify when you mean something light, you know?
Andy Heise:uh well, yeah, you're, yeah, you learned the lesson I learned, you tell me exactly what you want.
Nick Petrella:I will go get that, yes yeah, and that's a really odd thing to quit over, so it must have been something else.
Andy Heise:There was a yeah.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, that's my hunch.
Andy Heise:Yeah, or like or or um. I'm sorry, I'm still hungry. Is there any way I could get more something?
Nick Petrella:else to eat, exactly Right.
Andy Heise:That would have solved that problem too. What are you?
Jeremy Rubenstein:five Anyway, Well, you know, like looking back at this too, like not that there were like a lot of red flags, but yeah, it's one of these. It's about communication is key too. So, even like in these interviews, it's like these interview questions, I think it's very important that we like outline like what we expect, and you know these kinds of things too. So I definitely have learned a few things based off yeah.
Nick Petrella:Earlier you had mentioned you have a non-compete clause with the nutrition yeah company, right the production company, and so what I'm wondering is you know businesses have moats that kind of keep other companies at bay. Do you have some sort of moat around your business that stops others from coming into it, or at least keeping you number one?
Jeremy Rubenstein:Um, okay, so in terms of the non-compete with like that yeah, I remember it was like maybe like a two or three year non-compete and that's years and years ago with like that that I had to sign and I believe that's illegal. I don't know if they were allowed to have done that to me, but so I wanted to honor what I see. Let's see. Can you clarify that question a little bit?
Nick Petrella:So so, in other words, what is your competitive advantage? What? Is something that you have that. Other people like if andy and I wanted to start a comedy troupe about bullying and we come up with a similar name. That's not what's what's to stop us? Well, not that you can stop us, but why would someone? Oh, we want to go with these guys because, or you have certain scripts that are trademarked, that type of thing?
Jeremy Rubenstein:Yeah, so I would say for it.
Nick Petrella:Copyrighted yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Rubenstein:Well, no trademark, and well, you can copyright a script, you can trademark a name, right, right? I would highly recommend anybody starting out Like I did my research to make sure nobody else was using box out bullying at the time and nobody was. So I do have a trademark on box out bullying. I remember sending a cease and desist letter to the Detroit Pistons because they were doing like a box out bullying event, which was kind of cool. Like, hey, I've made it, but at the same time, stop what you're doing. Like you know I own this trademark, so definitely do your research, get a good copyright lawyer to make sure that things are like in place for this. Um, I, I know, for at least what I do. Uh, you know, people come to us and this is all like you know. Like, hey, we love what you did. Like you know they'll have a um I I'm not sure if there's anybody that's exactly doing what we're doing uh, in terms of having like a full on like theater production with evidence-based research that does stuff for parents, students and kids.
Jeremy Rubenstein:Like in the past, people have said like, hey, we brought in like, for example, like maybe a BMX bike show, so they'll come in and then, like at the end they'll say like don't bully kids. You know, after like doing the show, so these organizations that do assemblies for schools, you know they understand like hey, this is a hot issue. So they'll like say something, but there's no, it's the problem, there's no solution to it. It's not researched, you know, it doesn't. Maybe it's like the show or a magician doing his act that he's been doing or they've been doing, and like at the end just saying like be kind to each other without like going over specific, you know, an emphasis on bystander empowerment or how to turn people that would see bullying and do nothing to students who see bullying and try to do something. So for us it's more so the language and using theater as a way to do that.
Jeremy Rubenstein:You know, if you'd like to start something and do all that research, it's tough. You know, I remember doing a conference when I was first starting out, trying to like get the word out, and you know, somebody next to me has like a game show where that deals with all kinds of issues, and he goes, he's like offering me fatherly advice, like, yeah, you know, the first five years it's going to be tough, you know, and I'm thinking five years. My goodness, who wrote that time to it? But you know, I remember writing myself a letter when I think I started this, when I was 24 or 25, like saying, hey, we'll give you a year, let's see how things go. And I remember, like, like saving that letter and I still have that letter to this day and I've been doing that since then. So, yeah, every year, every year, I still look at that. Yeah, you know that same letter.
Jeremy Rubenstein:So make sure that my script is trademark, the name is. I'm sorry, the name is. The script is copywritten, the name is trademark. Even I think I might have a patent or two on how the box works to make sure that nobody does replicate that as well. So, yeah, definitely make sure things are covered, because I'll have organizations or even educators say like, hey, we're looking to hold an event. We'd like to use the term box out bullying, it's only going to be used once. Blah, blah, blah. But you know, we have to be very careful about how that is used.
Nick Petrella:Sure yeah.
Andy Heise:So, like you said, you're using theater as a way to communicate these messages about bullying and other issues. Nick's going to ask, I think, asking you about that a little bit later, the other offerings that you have, offerings that you have, um, and so I think you consider yourself it is a social entrepreneur or an entrepreneur who's solving a social problem through theater is kind of, I think, how, how it's characterized, and so I'm wondering, like do you think or have you, as as a social entrepreneur, as a social venture, have you faced challenges that maybe people that don't have that social mission attached to the to it? Have you, have you faced any problems that they don't, or or maybe face them differently?
Jeremy Rubenstein:Yeah, so when I, I, when I think of, like social entrepreneurship, it's you're, you're putting like profits.
Jeremy Rubenstein:Secondly, like you know, you're trying to make sure that you're trying to help the client solve this issue, to solve this societal problem. Uh, so that's like our number one focus. Um, I, I'd say that it's it's actually helped us quite a bit, because we've gotten so much support from, you know, technicians or, like you know, website developers or people that really have a story and believe in this, so that they will go and maybe charge us not as much as they would like trying somebody's trying to like, sell t-shirts or something like that. So I would say that's actually benefited us quite a bit. So I'm all for people that are trying to, you know, help. You know, at the same time, you're trying to pay the bills and you're trying to pay the wage, but you know, at the same time, there are people that, like, truly believe in what we do that I don't think I'd be able to even work with them if we didn't have the mission that we did. Yeah, yeah.
Nick Petrella:I was going to circle back to your IP comment when you said there were a couple of organizations or schools that wanted to use the words box out bullying.
Jeremy Rubenstein:Have you ever thought about licensing for those short amount of times or for those instances? Yeah, that's a great question. Have we thought about licensing? Somebody from my organization did bring that up about being able to license. Ah, that's beyond me. I have no idea how like that would even like start or work or what that would entail. Um so, but that's uh, that is something I don't think. I would have to look at the contract to make sure that they follow that with fidelity, Right, Right, yeah, Uh, because I am just uh, people have like come up to me and said what if you, you know, franchise this to make sure that in a specific region, like you know, you can train people to like kind of do this? And I got to tell you, if somebody just says like one word off, then I get like emails from like principals about like what bullying is and what it's not, you know, Interesting.
Nick Petrella:Yeah.
Jeremy Rubenstein:Like there are, there's some districts where you know there's no distinction between harassment, intimidation and bullying. So even if you just mention like it can happen once or again and again, versus if you miss that once, then we're in trouble, kind of thing. So I wouldn't be opposed to it, I would just have to be, you know, making sure that when we do license it, that they follow it with fidelity.
Andy Heise:Yeah.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, I just thought of our businesses, andy. We're going to have Box Out Intimidation and a sister company, box Out Harassment.
Jeremy Rubenstein:Oh, so hold on.
Nick Petrella:We're going to go head to head with you.
Jeremy Rubenstein:So, wait a second, I might have a copyright or trademark on that. I got Box out, the belly box out, bullying box out other things. So, yeah, no, I definitely had thought like this through that's awesome, to make sure, yeah, like hey, I'm kind of covered on this for a little bit.
Nick Petrella:Before your attorneys contact me that was a joke I have zero intent. Okay, so I see you offer student workshops on topics other than bullying Keep kids safe, online, building self-esteem and so on. What have been your most popular topics and have you seen those change throughout the years you've been doing this?
Jeremy Rubenstein:So can I add a correction there, so that that's actually not for students, but for parents and families? Oh, okay.
Nick Petrella:Okay, cool. Yeah, I pulled that from the side, okay, so that's okay.
Jeremy Rubenstein:Okay, yeah, so that's I think. So here's the thing. When we first started out with so I remember what kind of gave me also the impetus for this is, like you know, teachers would come to me and say, like you know what this cause, when you first start out, I was doing everything, I was acting at it, I was booking, I was you know. So I got like a lot of like feedback and educators would say, like you know, this is great, what do you got for parents? And I didn't have anything at the time. So I said, you know what great question, come back to me in like a month and I'll have something for you. So it was that need that they had that nobody else had at the time.
Jeremy Rubenstein:So I would say, what's equally important is to make sure that whatever program that you offer, it's comprehensive, and I think that's something that separates us from, I guess, other competitors too to make sure this is something that just not kids, but parents and caregivers, as well as faculty as well. So for our parent workshops, I would say, making sure that they know parents know the differences between what bullying is and what conflicts are, has been very important. We see a rise in because you know these? I'm holding up my cell phone right now. These things are toxic in terms of creating empathy, passion and care. So we're seeing a lot of rise on making sure that they know how to keep their kids safe online, avoiding social media pitfalls. But I would say one of my favorite ones is teaching social-emotional learning tools at home. We introduced something called a peace table. It's economical, easy to use and, followed with fidelity, will help create peace at home between siblings, spouses, significant others too.
Andy Heise:Great, yeah. Well, I would imagine sort of the one-stop shop, the consistent messaging that you're able to provide the kids and the parents, like that. That seems like a value proposition as well.
Jeremy Rubenstein:Yeah, and I feel like I don't think I got to correct myself on this and you can edit this out, but I don't think anybody is doing what we're doing, that they can come to us for faculty PD, classroom workshops, student workshops, all this and more, because I think, even with the grants that they have now, it has to be something that is research-based, which I think is something else that separates us from somebody else. And we actually have some research that goes, you know, followed with fidelity. If you do our activities and lesson plans, if you have the assembly, then this will help reduce instances of bullying by X, x, y. So I would highly recommend anybody starting out this to you know it takes have a longitudinal study, have, you know, and this comes with the journalism and also that one AP stats class I took in high school. You know, learning this, like putting this into, like practice too.
Andy Heise:Yeah, so you've done a longitudinal study on on your program or you used longitudinal based research to develop your program.
Jeremy Rubenstein:We've done a longitudinal based study on ours so a large geographic area, you know surveying students in grades fourth, fifth and sixth and then following them like throughout like a period of, I think, two and a half or three years. Yeah, Wow, that's amazing. Now, whether or not that's a big selling point, I don't know, but you know it's good for us.
Andy Heise:No, absolutely, yeah, yeah.
Nick Petrella:Jeremy, how many people do you currently employ and where do you see areas for growth?
Jeremy Rubenstein:Got it Okay.
Jeremy Rubenstein:So currently, because right now it's we're recording this in January, so it's after the fall, so things kind of slim out a little bit, as are, you know, getting ready for state testing and making sure that you know they're booking for next year. So right now I think we have like around six, but we have anywhere between six to 10 people that are teaching artists, actors, website developers, technicians, sound equipment managers. So where do we see this developing? So I think at this point we have the years, we have the research, we have the product.
Jeremy Rubenstein:I think it would be great to have somebody help us reach out to individuals or organizations you know that are looking to help social entrepreneurs, that kind of believe in this mission. So to try to come up with a strategy, to come up either with, you know, corporate underwriting or somebody that can kind of help us like break into districts that normally, like we wouldn't have been able to come into because you know a Google search or just principles like doing that is fine, but I can only imagine what it's like to have like a dedicated person like kind of help us with this.
Andy Heise:Lead generating that sort of stuff. Yeah, that kind of stuff.
Jeremy Rubenstein:You know it's, it's, this has been in the back, the back burner for a long, long time, uh, but it's always been a dream of mine to like create like a television series based off this. So you know, I'm thinking, so I got my spec script, uh. So, you know, to make sure this is kind of like a mr rogers kind of meets a peewee's playhouse kind of like venture, uh, that we have. So, you know, to make sure that we're able to like come up with those kinds of connections based off this, so yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Rubenstein:Yeah.
Nick Petrella:Great.
Andy Heise:Well, jeremy, we've reached the point of the interview where we ask all of our interviewees the same three questions, and the first question is what advice would you give to others wanting to become an arts entrepreneur?
Jeremy Rubenstein:Okay. So, based off of, um, my experience, uh, do your research, make sure that your support group can advance that idea. Uh, and you know, do good. You know, don't make it about you. Try to make it like try to use art and this gift that you have, uh, to make a career out of, to make a real, lasting impact. I think that's for me. I was tired of playing the roles and I really wanted to do something that would be like a legacy for this.
Nick Petrella:So, yeah, what can we do to ensure the arts are more accessible and reaching the widest possible audience?
Jeremy Rubenstein:So what school districts have been doing that we really appreciate in certain areas is there's like a dedicated arts and education liaison or there's somebody like in the district with that title that are able to accommodate funds and bring in arts organizations and at the same time, work with artists so we get paid on time. So I think if there could be more, allowing more time in the school day to focus not on reading, writing and arithmetic but on, you know, creativity and playmaking and aspects that enrich, you know, not just students but everybody too. So I would say, have a different paradigm shift to focus more, a little bit more, on bringing in, like the arts, especially in early childhood education too Great.
Andy Heise:Yep. Lastly, what's the best artistic or entrepreneurial advice you've been given?
Jeremy Rubenstein:Oh, I've gotten so much. Let's see. I think well, in this interview I'm going to give you so many answers on this. You can like edit it out. I mean, that I've been given is, like you know, you have the eye of a director. That's one of them. Realizing that you know what I came in as an actor, but you know there are other people that can do a lot better jobs as actors than me, which kind of like focused me into doing something else.
Jeremy Rubenstein:Um, uh, mark Olson, who uh was my mentor, who I remember saying to me as an artist, you know, a mistake on stage is a Buddha's gift. So when I heard that, I remember thinking like it doesn't have to be perfect and you should allow yourself the vulnerability, uh, to like make those mistakes and to be and to relate with the audience, which is so important, especially for a show like this. It has to be 100 percent genuine, because kids are brutally honest. If they don't like what's going on stage, they will let you know, which is so important. So if there is a mistake that does happen, you don't give them a note. If anything, you try to see like OK, that's interesting.
Jeremy Rubenstein:Now, what you know in terms of, I guess from an entrepreneurial stance. I remember when somebody said you know to think like a farmer. Growing up in Lancaster I was. I'm surrounded by them, but you know I never knew what that meant and how it applies to business. But you know, when I remember, think like a farmer in how it applies to business.
Jeremy Rubenstein:But you know, when I remember, think like a farmer in how it applies to, like, the arts. You know you don't shout at the crops. You know you don't blame the crops for not growing fast enough, you don't uproot them before they've had a chance to grow. So it's important when you like, you know you nurture the people that you bring on, because they are the creative talent making sure that you choose the best plants for the soil. They're actors with masters and that would be fantastic for this role, but at the same time, for what we expect them to do for the soil that we have, they've got to be that best. And I think, remember, you're going to have good seasons, you're going to have bad seasons. You can't control the weather, you can only be prepared for it. So each season we cast new actors again and again. Some seasons will be good, some seasons, like COVID, would just be non-existent and it's just important to prepare. So yeah, same thing with anybody looking to kind of start a career in the arts. I like it.
Nick Petrella:Well, Jeremy, it's been wonderful hearing your youthful and entertaining approach to teaching a very important subject. Thanks so much for coming on.
Jeremy Rubenstein:The interview's over already. I was just getting started. No, thank you guys so much. This was a blast. Thank you guys so much again Thanks.
Andy Heise:Jeremy.
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