Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
#321: Ragamala Dance Company (pt. 1 of 2)
This week on the podcast is part one of our interview with Ranee Ramaswamy, the Founding Artistic Director of the Ragamala Dance Company, along with her daughters Aparna and Ashwini. Aparna is the Executive Artistic Director, Choreographer and Principal Dancer in the company; and Ashwini is a Choreographic Associate, Dancer, and Communications Director.
The Ragamala Company tours extensively worldwide and has appeared at venues including the Kennedy Center, Lincoln Center, and Jacob’s Pillow. Individually, they have won numerous awards including Guggenheim Fellowships, US Artist Fellowships and over a dozen McKnight Fellowships. This brief bio just scratches the surface of their accolades, so make sure you visit their website to see their impressive list of accomplishments and media! https://www.ragamaladance.org/
Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast. Making art work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.
Andy Heise:Hi Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners. My name is Andy.
Nick Petrella:Heise and I'm Nick Petrella On the podcast. Today we have the founder and executives from the Ragamala Dance Company joining us. Ranee Ramaswamy is the founding artistic director of the company. She began in 1992. Her daughters, Aparna and Ashwini, both have key positions in the company. Aparna is the executive artistic director, choreographer and principal dancer in the company, and Ashwini is a choreographic associate, dancer and communications director. The company tours exclusively worldwide and has appeared at venues including the Kennedy Center, lincoln Center and Jacob's Pillow. Individually, our guests have won numerous awards, including Guggenheim Fellowships, us Artist Fellowships and over a dozen McKnight Fellowships. Since this just scratches the surface of their accolades, I strongly encourage you to visit their website in the show notes to see their impressive list of accomplishments. Before we continue, we'd like to give a shout out to Jane Chu for introducing us to Ronnie and her daughters. Thank you all for coming on the podcast.
Ranee Ramaswamy:Thank you, thank you, thank you. We're happy to be here.
Nick Petrella:Starting an arts venture is almost always difficult, so I'm wondering what it was like for you, ronnie, back in 1992 as an immigrant to the US. Did you have challenges beyond the normal startup issues of cash flow and infrastructure costs?
Ranee Ramaswamy:You know the words infrastructure and cash flow was not even in my mind, because I was trying to sell an art form, the name of it, bharatanatyam.
Ranee Ramaswamy:The minute people saw it, they didn't you know, they were afraid even to try to pronounce it. So I was trying to make a company which had an art form that was completely new, especially in the Midwest, in Minnesota, and the terminology, the content, the form was all foreign to grantees, to presenters, so I had to personally reach out to each one of them if I had applied for a funding, because, of course, you know, funding is the most important thing when you start a company and everything had to be a personal reach out and explain a 2000 year old art form and at that time, being a new immigrant to the United States, even though I spoke fluent English, I even did not have the how do I simplify this and make people understand? So that was my biggest challenge. Of course, with cash flow and infrastructure, you could always have people in the field help you with it, but I think that the explanation and to make people understand our product has been a long time complicated stuff for us.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, so did you rely on the Indian community when you were starting out?
Ranee Ramaswamy:You know I would say my first opportunity in Minneapolis when I immigrated in 1978 came from the Indian community because there was no dancer. There were only 100 Indian people of Indian origin in Minnesota. They asked me to dance. I hadn't danced for a long time so they gave me the first entry point. But it was actually the dance community, the funding community, the presenter community were my support people, because I think each and every people were interested and excited about a new art form that was being brought from another culture and I was so sincere and my excitement I was pretty young All of that helped me create this group of people who listened and I think I would say it was the arts community, the funding community and the presenting community were my support system.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, and in a way you were looking for things, but it sounds like the dance community found you.
Ranee Ramaswamy:I wouldn't say that it was two-way. I couldn't just sit and say you find me, no, no. So I actually reached out, not only through conversations, but also by collaborating, reaching out, asking them, you know, watching them dance. So I didn't. I think I broadened my knowledge by watching other dance styles and to find a common connection between them so that I personally made friendships in the artistic community not only just by talking but actually working with them.
Andy Heise:That's great. Well, and it seems like you know it's challenging, as it was to get started Like you must have had other things you could have done right, so why the persistence to continue to try to launch this? What was that about?
Ranee Ramaswamy:Yeah, you know, the time I came to Minneapolis in India, I would have only been a housewife. I had studied dance as a child, from seven to 17, because I loved this art form. But there was absolutely no one would, even including me knew that I would never dance after marriage. But coming to Minneapolis gave me this opportunity and I had a degree in drawing and painting. Well, that wouldn't get me anywhere. And in those days you got married, you became a mother and a housewife. There was no plan of anything, that I would become anybody in my life, but Minneapolis did that for me and the only product I had was this art form, and I think I'm a very ambitious person, so that helped a lot, yeah sure, for sure.
Andy Heise:And so what were some of the those early decisions that allowed you to, uh, gain some traction with with Ragamala, and when did it evolve into Ragamala, this dance company that now tours internationally?
Ranee Ramaswamy:I think from 1980 to 1992, I was an independent artist, but along with me was my child who came here, came to Minnesota at the age of three, aparna, who just fell in love with this dance form and she was my partner from that time. I mean, it's hard to believe, but then what happened in 1983 is I met Aparna and I met this amazing artist from India. She's the best in the field. You know, I believe in destiny. I studied from just a neighborhood teacher and I tried to do what I could.
Ranee Ramaswamy:But in 1983, alamel Valli, who is the best dancer in this form, came to Minneapolis. She was brought as a residency artist by a professor at the Minneapolis University, minnesota University. Aparna and I saw her and we just we were blown away by that talent and the quality of that dancing and we joined her residency class and after a week of class she said you know, if you bring your daughter, I'm going to start teaching, I will teach her. So Aparna was what? Seven years old and Ashuni was just a baby and I asked her if I could also learn with her and she said you know, if you come to me, you have to start all over again because you're doing a different style. So from 1983, september, aparna and I became students of that teacher and I started my first alphabet with my daughter and ever since we have been partners. Without Aparna, nothing that I do would be possible. I don't know if I answered the question, but I went off on a tangent.
Andy Heise:No, it absolutely answers the question, Because that was the impetus for seeing oh, this is our art form, this is the dance that we do. And then from there, you said how do we share this with the world? How do we get this out into the community? How do we let an audience enjoy this art form as well?
Ranee Ramaswamy:We got from our teacher. That's precious. She, my teacher is four years younger than me. She does a unique style that and she traveled the world as young as 12, she was all over performing. So when we received this art form, we knew that this art form wasn't meant to be just in the community. This is equal to any art form, any dance form, that happens in the biggest theaters in this country. So that was the impetus to start the company and to put her the art form.
Nick Petrella:we got from her, the art form we got from her, even though we have grown and created works with it. But the basis of our work comes from that learning, and fantastic teaching at an early age surely paid dividends, because if you get the right technique and you hear how to interact with the music.
Ranee Ramaswamy:Surely that that helps. Yes, definitely, aparna can talk about that yeah, did you want to say something?
Aparna Ramaswamy:well.
Aparna Ramaswamy:Well, I would say that it has.
Aparna Ramaswamy:Obviously, it has shaped my entire life and, yes, early training is everything for an artist in terms of providing a foundation in your marrow without having to become part of your entire life experience instead of having them fed to you.
Aparna Ramaswamy:Very young age, I understood this incredibly special opportunity that we had and how we spent so many hours of every day in the presence of greatness, and what it took for my mother to for us, for what it took for my mother to get us there with her, what it took for our teacher and her mother and their partnership to teach us I mean there were so many moving parts, mother and their partnership to teach us. I mean there were so many moving parts, and so it wasn't just about dance, vocabulary or music, but it was about being in the presence of someone who was, who is a genius, and when you're a young person and you're very impressionable to spend time with someone who is incredible and thoughtful and talented and willing to spend time sharing that with you, it shapes your entire world and every decision you make in your life after that.
Nick Petrella:Oh, I'm sure. Well, we're going to switch gears just a little bit, but this question is for both Aparna and Ashwini. It looks like you grew up in the company. That's accurate. It looks like you grew up in the company. That's accurate. Yeah, and so when did you each begin to work in the company, and what was the dynamic like working with the founder, who happens to be your mother?
Aparna Ramaswamy:So I can start by just saying that I obviously, as Ronnie already said, I was practicing and performing and working with her before there was a company and I was always around when there was a company. But even at a very young age we were making decisions for dance and I was always like a sounding board, even though I was very young. And when I was in college I studied political science, but I was I was about an hour away from my mother and so I was touring and coming back and forth all the time constantly to practice and rehearse. And then, after I graduated, shortly after, I once again returned full time and eventually I think shortly after that became associate artistic director and then co-artistic director and now executive artistic director associate artistic director and then co-artistic director and now executive artistic director. But I think my, my relationship with my mother is always an incredible partnership and and colleague and sounding board. But we're very, very opposite, so it works for us to have to work together. Our personalities are very different, so we compliment each other.
Nick Petrella:And Ashwini, when did you start in the company?
Ashwini Ramaswamy:I'll just start by saying that. So one of the interesting things about this partnership is the fact that Rani is someone who was born and raised in India. Aparna is someone who was born in India and raised and spent so much time between the two countries I was born here and would go back and forth, but not as often and so we all have different relationships to this idea of homeland and desire to connect with homeland. And I'd also say that we in some ways fall into a very stereotypical older daughter, younger daughter place, because Aparna is so much like the, the first child, so responsible, very much like a parent to me, and I'm kind of a little bit more rebellious and had more interests growing up and kind of pushed against the expectation of being doing better than Atiyah, and so I I took class from Ronnie and Aparna they were my first teachers and then I was very interested in singing, theater, drawing, literature, just voracious about arts, and was along for. You know, I was there when Ragamala started.
Ashwini Ramaswamy:I danced in all of the performances throughout middle school and high school and college. I went to the same college as Upper Nile Carleton College, about an hour from the Twin Cities, and I performed in the performances from there. But I always thought that the end of college would be a different chapter and so I actually moved to New York City and was in publishing, I was a book publicist and after about three years I felt this I don't know if it was a pull to Homeland, a pull to family, a pull to perform all those ideas of Bharatanatyam they just took over, of Baratheonatium they just took over, and I moved back and completely committed to becoming a full-time artist. And now I also choreograph and I'm choreographic associate and we've become this trio that has very different entry points and different ideas, but that is what I think makes us the strongest.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, so that foment with the three of you interacting. Surely that generates a wide variety of ideas than, say, if just one or two of you would be interacting.
Aparna Ramaswamy:So I would say that it's as Ashwini said we all have this shared love and background, but we do come from different perspectives, but we have so much love and respect and trust in each other, in each other and in each other's opinions, that it absolutely feels like it's an incredibly um dynamic way to work. It works for us and it's it's it's filled with support, but also critical thinking, which is incredibly important.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, so the second half of that question what's the dynamic like working with a founder who happens to be your mother? Cause I, so my wife and I my wife's a pianist and we had played 12 years together as a, as a duo, and, um, I can tell you funny stories about what that was like, but we'll do that off mic.
Andy Heise:So what's it like working with it? Yeah, family, family business has dynamics that other businesses don't.
Ashwini Ramaswamy:So yeah, I think it would be harder to work with a spouse. I'll tell you that.
Aparna Ramaswamy:I would agree with that. We have our own dynamics. So I think I can let Ronnie answer for herself, but for me it's amazing to be the three of us together, to be the three of us together, but we have, we have very um, we have different relationships between the three of us, between two of us and I would say that I mean my, my mother and I are we're, we're partners. You know, we're like two sides of a. We've traveled this entire journey together and we can talk each other up down. We know how we tick, we know we're in it in it, in it together. Not that Ashmi and I were not, but we have a different history. And then I would say that Ashmi and I my mother was saying the other day we're almost like twins. We have the same friends, we understand each other with the same interests we get. We've lived at the same time. We're again like the same person in a different way.
Nick Petrella:Yeah.
Aparna Ramaswamy:I feel so lucky to have that.
Nick Petrella:Yeah.
Ranee Ramaswamy:I would say that if you go back and see a 30-year-old woman with an 80-year-old child learning to kindergarten school together, that's the concept people never understand when I say we are in the same level of performance and as you get older, you're not as good as the younger child.
Nick Petrella:Right.
Ranee Ramaswamy:But in a way of living in a very traditional culture and the knowledge that I think I, even if I get I still dance. I'm 70. I'm going to be 73 in March and if I don't dance, I will still be someone with a bank of information that comes from cultural living, born and lived in a soaking in a traditional culture. So I'll always be, until I die, part of this company. But it has been that journey of you know, being with your classmate throughout, because you know the ins and outs of experiencing, from the first step to learning, failing, practicing together, facing challenges. That's different. And then, with Ashwini, we also have a teacher-student relationship. And then from there to a mother-daughter, ashwini, when she was young she would call Aparna when she cries instead of Amma.
Ranee Ramaswamy:As a mother, I mean, these are, we are so fortunate to have this. It's not like we don't fight, it's not like we say, well, I don't want to do this, but there is always this anchor of this dance pulling us together. That I think it's a gift. Even this yesterday, aparna was saying our teacher gave us this gift Because it's not a dance that you conquer and you're done with Our art form. You never learn, because it's about a whole humanity, a culture. You can learn every facet of it. Another one comes up in the next minute, so it's a constant learning, and learning opens. You never achieve, you are never there. So then there is humility, there is tremendous gratitude. These are the basics of our family, as well as our work, and we sincerely approach it and accept it and move with it.
Ashwini Ramaswamy:And, if I may just say, as having role models like this from birth, who are the relationship is so multifaceted and you get to see, like I disagree with what ronnie said about how, as you get older, the younger daughters get better. R Rani only gets better at her practice as she ages. One of the things that I'm most proud of this art form is that it's not like other dance forms where your feet don't work anymore and you're done. It is a forever, like she just said, these people to look up to and keep you humble and keep you wise, and then surrounded by Indian philosophy that has survived through thousands of years to get people through all kinds of hard times. So it's, it's. The relationship is so dynamic.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, that's great.
Andy Heise:So once you started performing and building building the, the company how did you think about cultivating and expanding your audience over the years? Are there things that have worked better than others?
Ranee Ramaswamy:I will talk about the early days, early days in Minnesota. I, we performed, as I said, created many collaborative work, not ever fusing. There is no fusion that word we don't like very much. We built bridges between cultures, seeing what was common. How could we converse with I mean, no matter, there is no dancer, at least at that time, that I had not collaborated with and I learned, and this built audiences it. Everybody who came to see someone else saw us. So again, you have to have a lot of humility to not be the main person. Then I did hundreds of school residencies all over Minnesota, so teaching Indian culture through dance community centers. There was no place where we wouldn't. Aparna and I have actually brushed away the debris from a stage on outside and danced on it, so I can tell you stories of how, and most of the work that I did remained in Minnesota. Then Aparna came on as co-artistic director and she will talk about how it went from Minnesota to other places.
Aparna Ramaswamy:So, as Ronnie said, education and collaboration are consistent pillars in everything that we continue to do. But when I became more involved after college and when I was really looking at what we were doing, I felt, you know, as Ronnie said, we learned so much from the artists around us. So, as diaspora artists here in this country, you're exposed to so many different genres, different artists, and you're so inspired. But what I learned is that we can take this art form with the complexity that it has, and take it far and wide and express its universality, and we don't ever have to dilute its complexity to do that. And that was really my mission and, I would say, my contribution to this company, because I felt so strongly that our voice has a place in this country.
Aparna Ramaswamy:And so in the work we were doing, I was very interested in going deeper into our Indian roots, the mythology, the music, the themes, and not trying to create work that made it easier for people to understand, but have it be emotionally accessible, artistically accessible, and then use that tool of education.
Aparna Ramaswamy:So, with the conversations, the explanations, the context around it, that is what would build the bridges rather than just the work itself, because the work had so much potency. And that's when we really started to say let's really go deep and show everybody the richness and the possibilities of this and then, as we talk to presenters and different venues and different granting organizations, let's really express the depth of our training, the depth of the poetry and our approach and then our vision as immigrant artists and why it's important for people to see this work here. So I would say that that communication and that context really it increased our visibility and it increased people's access to the work and they saw themselves in it. It was a constant sharing of the fact that everyone exists in this work. This is, as Ronnie said, about humanity, yeah, and it's about nature and it's about the sacred and it's about all the things that we all care about and I'm also communications director of our company and so it's interesting self-taught.
Ashwini Ramaswamy:I mean, as I said, I did publicity at books, sure, and everything Upruna said is so deep and it's a long game and it's about training and it's about feeling and it's about learning, and that is really hard to do in this age of media. Yes, so we have.
Ashwini Ramaswamy:You know, we're being told, give us that in three seconds, or five seconds, and so that's evolving, because we've been in existence throughout all this, throughout, before there was email, before there was Instagram, before there was YouTube, and so you know, I think I'm a little stubborn because I don't. There's some, there's a disconnect sometimes between those mediums and we have to be able to stay true to what we believe, while still, you know, we can't disengage from those things, but we're always learning. Still, you know we can't disengage from those things, but we're always learning. So, yes, the branding and the messaging have to evolve, just with the times, but I still feel, like you know, deep inside, we are so true to what we believe in that the spirit of the form is.
Andy Heise:Yeah, I'm just thinking it might be helpful to just kind of give us an idea of you know, from starting out doing these collaborations in Minneapolis to where you are now. Give us an idea of what's happening in your organization right now in terms of performances and that sort of thing.
Aparna Ramaswamy:So currently we're working on a piece, we're actually touring a piece. We just premiered a piece entitled Children of Dharma, just premiered a piece entitled Children of Dharma, and so it's based on three characters of the Hindu epic, the Mahabharata, which is a foundational epic of South Asian culture and it is, it has been seen, you know, for millennia as as just a part of who Indians are. It's not something we refer to or flip to page 56. But it describes humanity and over the ages. So war, love, greed, jealousy, struggle for power, and so what? To give you an example, when I talk about poetry, or depth, or collaboration, the way we are seeing this is, we're very interested in the human condition, we're so interested in what we're committed to, what humans are experiencing and our relationship with the larger world and the spiritual world, and so we have selected three characters from that epic to go into. What are their stories, what are their inner landscapes, what are the metaphors that we see in their stories? How do they represent the larger world?
Aparna Ramaswamy:So, for example, one of the characters, thraupathy.
Aparna Ramaswamy:She's the female protagonist and she is dishonored. She's the wife of the five brothers and it's a much more complicated story that I'm saying, but she is this feminine force, but she's also dishonored and there are ways that she has been portrayed in media for decades. But what we were very interested in is who is this person and what is her larger entity in the world? And so in doing research you know, ronnie found that there are traditional Tamil cultures who see her as the goddess, as mother nature herself, as the feminine power, and so that is the approach that we took, and so, being able to dig into that and research and see that the five brothers, they represent the elements. She is in charge of keeping the elements in balance, and so the order of the world continues.
Aparna Ramaswamy:I mean, it's a very complex story, but that approach was so interesting to us. So when I say collaboration, we're now working with scholars, we're working with scenic designers, lighting designers, incredible musicians, to create this world of complexity and depth and poetry and spirituality, and on a multi-planed vision as we see it, not just this linear narrative, and so I know that that maybe is not an example as a clear answer to your question, but that type of production that keeps us busy for years and then, as we tour it, we're able to learn more, as we discuss and learn how it connects with other people and cultures as we tour it in this country.
Nick Petrella:Do you always use traditional poetry or do you work with poets to create new poetry?
Ranee Ramaswamy:In this. Usually, you know, there are phenomenal Tamil poetry, sanskrit poetry, hindi I mean there are so many languages in India and the poets that are, they're spiritual. There are longing poems. There are poems where those who are what do you call it? Under what is the word I'm trying to say who are not allowed into the temple, singing for their the deep desire of seeing God. You know, it's filled with emotions of all kinds. In Children of Dharma we have actually used poems not even from the Mahabharata, but with researching poetry from various texts. And also we had a poet who lives in San Jose write a poem based on the character, and both Ashwini and I play one character. I am one side of that person and Ashwini I am one side of that person and Ashwini, through the poem being recited in Tamil, she plays the other role. So we do both. We use, but most almost always are its original composition. These poems are composed into music.
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