Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
#322: Ragamala Dance Company (pt. 2 of 2)
This week on the podcast is part two of our interview with Ranee Ramaswamy, the Founding Artistic Director of the Ragamala Dance Company, along with her daughters Aparna and Ashwini. Aparna is the Executive Artistic Director, Choreographer and Principal Dancer in the company; and Ashwini is a Choreographic Associate, Dancer, and Communications Director.
The Ragamala Company tours extensively worldwide and has appeared at venues including the Kennedy Center, Lincoln Center, and Jacob’s Pillow. Individually, they have won numerous awards including Guggenheim Fellowships, US Artist Fellowships and over a dozen McKnight Fellowships. This brief bio just scratches the surface of their accolades, so make sure you visit their website to see their impressive list of accomplishments and media! https://www.ragamaladance.org/
Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast. Making art work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts Andy Heiss and Nick Petrella.
Andy Heise:Hi Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners. My name is.
Nick Petrella:Andy Heiss and I'm Nick Petrella On the podcast. Today we have the founder and executives from the Ragamala Dance Company joining us. Rani Ramaswamy is the founding artistic director of the company. She began in 1992. Her daughters, aparna and Ashwini, both have key positions in the company. Aparna is the executive artistic director, choreographer and principal dancer in the company, and Ashwini is a choreographic associate, dancer and communications director. The company tours exclusively worldwide and has appeared at venues including the Kennedy Center, lincoln Center and Jacob's Pillow. Individually, our guests have won numerous awards, including Guggenheim Fellowships, us Artist Fellowships and over a dozen McKnight Fellowships. Since this just scratches the surface of their accolades, I strongly encourage you to visit their website in the show notes to see their impressive list of accomplishments. Before we continue, we'd like to give a shout out to Jane Chu for introducing us to Ronnie and her daughters. Thank you all for coming on the podcast.
Ranee:Thank you, thank you Thank you. We're happy to be here.
Nick Petrella:So earlier you mentioned grants and I'm imagining that you have revenue streams from commissions, ticket sales, but I assume grants comprise a bulk of your income. If that's right, do you have any tips for grant writing?
Aparna:You're laughing at Shweta.
Nick Petrella:What's that?
Aparna:Nothing, I said nothing, nothing. Go ahead, oprah.
Ashwini:Well, no, I just wanted to say that, in terms of revenue streams, we do rely on grants and obviously there are many different types. Right, there's private foundations, there are government grants and obviously there are many different types. Right, there's private foundations, there's um, there are government grants, there's individual contributions in terms of revenue, um and contributed income, but we have a very healthy earned income stream as well in terms of we have a, we tour, we teach, we just we always make sure that that balance is very healthy. That's important to us because obviously, when you run a nonprofit or any business, you can't rely just on one revenue stream. So we're always watching that number. So I just wanted to say that, and then someone else can answer about grants. I was just joking that there's.
Aparna:no, I don't think there is a real secret to it, but go ahead, amma.
Ranee:No, I was just saying that when I started, the bank balance was $5,000. That, but go ahead. Amma, our dancers was, she was working there and she would have that open for us and I would cook for a hundred people and all my dancers helped and people came. They donated money. So you have to, once you do this, this kind of work, like you are always thinking of how do you make, how can you make your your um, your work happen? You know how do you create funding. So it's not only creating original ideas, you also have to create original ways of making money. That's right.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, well, I love it and that's kind of what I was going after. So you have a variety of revenue streams and just the passion, exactly the creativity, to keep it going. So that's what. That's what we want younger people here to hear.
Ashwini:But I would say about grants that I mean, obviously, as we all know, there are small grants and larger grants, and we try for everything because you have to. You know it takes a patchwork to make a quilt, but I would say that it's what's very, very important. And sometimes, I think a lot of times you can get stuck in what comes first the grant or the project, because how do you create a project without funding and how do you apply for a grant without a project, and how far along the pipeline do you go on each one? And so that's different for every organization or every artist. But I would say what's really worked for us. I don't know if it's worked in terms of actually getting a lot of funding, but what feels authentic to us is to have conversations with anyone who will talk to you at granting organizations, Really talk about if you're a good fit. Is your project a good fit? How can you get people to read what you've written before you, and a lot of people offer this and people don't know it.
Ashwini:A lot of people are too nervous about doing that, and I think vulnerability is key, because we all have something to learn. We have a lot to learn, and so people are. People want to help, they want to fund you, they exist so they can fund you, but I think that there are there's a lot of opacity, and I think that even more now, and so I think if you can break that down a little bit and start making appointments and start talking to people and also just get to know people as people, yes, I think it's very helpful, yeah, and I think the project, if you're, if you're really believe in the project and you're writing, and you're writing everything you can, if you, even if you don't get anything, that writing, the process of writing it really helps the project.
Aparna:And there's something mentally helpful about just thinking about the outcome and what it can do to people's lives, in your life, instead of what you might get out of it.
Ranee:Also, I think you get rejections many but never take a rejection as oh, this is done, I'm not going to do it. I get motivated more when I don't get it, because then I want to go for it again, yeah, so all of this together helps.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, I would imagine that, Ronnie. I can see that Real quick. Before Andy gets to his next question who writes grants Any of you? Do you employ someone or do you work with a grant writer outside?
Ranee:Long time ago oh sorry, long time ago I wrote the grants and then we had our dancer. You know, all our dancers also are administrators in our company. So we had one of our dancers became the grant writer, but the ideas came from Aparna and myself, so we had it in our head. So it's always difficult when someone else is crafting it. So we were constantly we constantly work on making sure that all our ideas are in the paper. Then, after Aparna came on board, then Aparna will talk about it.
Ashwini:Oh well, I was just going to say that all of us have written so many grants. We write personal grants also, but also we've written so many grants for the company, but we continue to write constantly, and so now we do have a grant writer we work with who is wonderful. We work with who is wonderful. But, again, for that authenticity, we are constantly writing and we're shaping and we're talking about our audiences, and I mean ashwini writes a great deal. We write together. A lot of times we'll words, we'll wordsmith too much, we'll craft together and because, again, that it is fun together, we to we love to do it together, we love to work together. But it feels, again, it's an extension of the project and your artistry and your vision. It doesn't stand separately and so it's both for good and for ill. You can sometimes get too wrapped up in it, but it has to feel authentic.
Ranee:And I think I'm so fortunate because I have two daughters who have gone to college here, which I didn't. My language is much different, even when I write. There are lots of Indian stuff in it, so I have the humility to know that I can only do this much, and I let them fix it for me when I write.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, that's good to have that ability.
Andy Heise:Yeah, so the performing arts space is highly competitive. How have you positioned Ragamala throughout the years to compete with? You know all the other opportunities for people, for audiences, to engage in in cultural experiences.
Ashwini:Well, I would say that the first, the number one and the most important thing is that we hold ourselves to the highest standard of excellence and that is everything for us. I mean that really, that that hard work and the discipline and the unwavering expectation, level of expectation, working with the best musicians, working with the best lighting designers been really the product. I hate to even call it a product, but what we, what we offer, has to be the best we can do. It may not be the best ever, but the best we can do. There is no compromise, by any stretch at least. So we do our best. And then again, it's that communication of what.
Ashwini:What are, what will, what do we hope people will feel, how do we hope that this connects us with the larger world and with individuals? How will they connect with it and so really being able to speak about that and speak about how traditional societies, how ancient societies, are contemporary and relevant and thriving and how do we connect our worlds. And how do the arts connect our worlds? How does this particular art form connect our worlds? And we feel that this approach does speak to people. We don't create work for a venue or for their mission. We create work that feels genuine to us, that fulfills our natural curiosities and artistic impulses, and we hope people will want to experience it.
Aparna:And because you're talking about entrepreneurship, it's a business and I have been told many times by many, many the staffs of many organizations that we're very responsive and that we do things according to the deadline, which is important.
Aparna:And because, yes, as Ronnie mentioned, because all the dancers hold administrative roles, we really believe in what we're doing and we have a high level of awareness about all the different aspects. And then, just in terms of, again, this idea of marketing, we make sure that the images, the videos really capture the ethos of the product, again calling it a product. One small thing we've realized over the years is for pictures, especially the pictures from the live performance, really hit better than like a photo shoot. So we really tend to go towards live performance photos and just getting that, you know, the dynamism of the performance onto the image.
Ranee:I think so. What is important here is you can be a great artist. You have to have a business plan. It can't be just one or the other.
Nick Petrella:Right and you know to your point, ashwini, being fast, quick and responding whether it's phone or email, the word probably gets out with these people you're engaging with, and if it makes it easier for them empathetically that's what you're doing Probably helps you get more gigs in a way.
Andy Heise:And certainly the second gig, right? They remember? Oh, I remember working with Ragamal they were so easy to work with. They were on time, they were. You know. I imagine that that's part of reputationally too, would be important.
Ashwini:The first point of contact after we get on the ground is our tech team. Every single person has to be the best at what they do, and every single person has to be friendly and personable and easy to work with. And also, we all take care of each other, and so all of that has to exist for something to be successful. And it's true, people talk to each other, but you also. As artists, we pride ourselves on being very accessible. We want to talk to the presenter, we want to talk to audiences. We want to. We want people to hear in our own words what our work is about.
Ranee:And because and you are if, if you are a high level performing artist, it doesn't mean you can just spend your time doing only your rehearsing and doing your dance. Aparna has to be in charge of everything that is happening around her, so it's not so all of us. Ashwini has her work cut out for her, so we try to find every day a chunk of time when we can practice, so that one doesn't take over the other.
Nick Petrella:So you just mentioned that you have an agent and I see the company has exclusive representation. What went into your decision to partner with your current management company?
Ashwini:So we work with Laura Colby. She is the president of LC Management. She's amazing, she is the president of LC Management. We have done, we have invented everything. We.
Ashwini:None of us went to any sort of school or training or have has worked anywhere else to understand how to build an arts nonprofit and so. But having an agent was a huge I mean, getting an agent was difficult, it was a coup. And then we are. We are constantly watching around us what, what is the relationship like between artists and agents? What are how, what are we seeing? What looks successful, what looks more challenging?
Ashwini:And so for a couple of years we were, I mean, we definitely knew about Laura Colby and we saw how it seemed that she was representing her artists and the relationship she seemed to have and we were very impressed and, um, and we connected and it was a a wonderful um, a wonderful meeting, and we worked together for some time. And I think the most important thing about Laura is she cares so deeply about the work. She understands that this is our life's work and we are on this journey together and she is right there with us. And so it's not just about getting performances, but it's also about what are our goals, our wider goals about sharing this art form. Where do we want to be, what do we want to say and to whom do we want to say it? And we do that together.
Nick Petrella:Now, Ashwini, do you work closely with Laura as a communications director?
Aparna:I actually work more directly with the venues.
Nick Petrella:Okay.
Aparna:So, once she has negotiated things, then I'll get the venue contact or they'll contact me and I'll send. The agency does have a portfolio of images and videos that they ask for just to have on hand, but it's more of a yeah, directly with the venues. On communication Makes sense.
Andy Heise:So earlier um Aparna, you were telling us about, um Children of Dharma, sort of the inspiration behind behind that latest show. Uh, but I'm wondering like so, from the idea for that, or from the seed of the idea for that, imagining what that show could be, would you three mind walking us through what is that creative process like?
Ranee:So the Mahabharata was never in our imagination. We never wanted to make a piece from Mahabharata. It's huge. There are thousands and thousands of stories in it. Usually there are a few scenes that people do. We were not very interested in that. But we came across a book written by a New York author. His name is Kirtik Shashidharan. He wrote a novel based on the Mahabharata and he was planning to write three, three volumes. He finished one and he is a friend of a friend. We got introduced to him. We read a lot of what he had written. We read this book first volume. The opening just blew us away and we said well, this is what we want to do.
Aparna:It's called Dharma Forest.
Ranee:Yeah, it was called Dharma Forest and we could visualize the first scene by just reading it. And then things we started with other characters that he hadn't yet developed. But his book gave us the freedom to break just the original way of the woman that Aparna explained, presented, and we started to research and find scholars. Actually a Dutch scholar, saskia Karsenboom, was a main she gave us the most information about she's an Indologist about the Tamil character and how the Tamil part of India, the southeastern part of India or southwestern part of India, saw Draupadi as they saw her as Mother Earth. They saw her husbands as elements. So we went with it.
Aparna:And that's also where Bharatanatyam is from and where we are from.
Andy Heise:That region yeah.
Ranee:And so and here and I play Gandhari, the mother of 100 bad cousins who she's completely she has blindfolded herself because she was unhappy in her marriage. She didn't. It shows irresponsibility and what happens at the end. So these were the material that we had to create this work from. That's from my part.
Aparna:Just really quickly, I would say also, it's kind of like one person will have the seed of an idea and start talking and then it just becomes this interwoven tree of you know of perspectives. So it's kind of interesting. If you're talking about a creative process, it's kind of someone will say, oh, I was thinking about this, and before you know it it's two years down the line and it's a growing project. I don't know. Would you like to add no?
Ashwini:I don't have anything. Well, I can add that I mean, what's really interesting is that we don't we definitely don't divide and conquer. We constantly in conversation, so everything does. It's layered in terms of having the three of us participate. Ronnie is incredible at source material and she's amazing at research and and gathering and analyzing, and I think I play the role as editor. I'm always questioning and saying how does this connect to this? Can we find a symbol or a deeper metaphor here? It's we all have our strengths and we all play various roles. Um, and so that's how and and the work. It has seven dancers, a recorded score, an original score. It has massive projections, beautiful lighting. It's um. It's.
Ranee:It's an incredibly intimate work on a very grand scale I think the we forgot to mention is the music, All the music. Aparna had single-handedly worked with the musicians who are from India.
Nick Petrella:So, and that's what go ahead no go ahead.
Aparna:I just want to say, I just want to make sure it's clear that so Children of Dharma is the first show that all three of us have worked on together. So, Ronnie and Aparna have built so much of the of the canon of work like years and years and years and years. I'm sort of learning and I have created some of my own work in the past, kind of like. I call it like the addition process to get now to be in on the trio. But I want to make that clear.
Nick Petrella:Sorry, you were going. You were saying something, Aparna, you had something you were going to say.
Ashwini:Oh no, I just was going to say I think that was your next question, so I didn't want to jump in.
Nick Petrella:Exactly so you know, when creating your choreography. I was wondering if you work with the musicians simultaneously or if you start with the music first. How does that work?
Ashwini:Or if you start with the music first, how does that work? So in Barre de Nardium it's a very incredibly enmeshed process music and dance and so obviously you need music to create dance. But the choreographer is so much a part of the music composition process, is so much a part of the music composition process, and so in our process we find the lyrics, as Roddy mentioned earlier, and then work with the composer to determine musical modes, the rhythms, the way that it's going to be sung, how many times it's repeated, how much you want to delve into the concept, the idea, the repetitions of words, lines, etc. And we have an incredible composer who lives in India. And then we also have an ensemble of musicians who are the best Bharatanatyam musicians that are really playing right now, and so we're very fortunate to work with them. So we work with each of them.
Ashwini:Again, a Bardinati creator creates all of the rhythmic phrases, all of the complexity, so we really have to have that idea for what we want. And then we work with the percussionists, we work with the melodic instruments violin and flute to embellish, and so when we create the score, you really envision the entire thing. It's the choreographer's job to envision that score and then communicate with the musicians, and then really it's a collaborative process to create it, and so it's it's my, my role to work with the musicians to record all of that. So I create very and we do it remotely Right, and so it's. It's a lot of late night meetings, overnight meetings.
Nick Petrella:Right right.
Ranee:We also work with the live. We bring the musicians here and we do performances with live music, the terminology to speak and the language skills to speak with the Indian musicians who, some of them, don't speak English fluently. And Aparna is able to do that even though she went she was, she has lived here all her life and but she's able to go back and forth to be able to do that. I am so proud of that.
Nick Petrella:You know, to tie two things together one that Ashwini mentioned and one that Aparna just mentioned about the live music and recording it, and then, I think, communications marketing. You're using excerpts from live performances. I strongly encourage everyone listening to this podcast to go to your website and watch those videos because, as a percussionist, the rhythms, the sounds, just the beauty of the costumes I strongly encourage everyone listening to this podcast to go to your website and watch those videos Because, as a percussionist, the rhythms, the sounds, just the beauty of the costumes blew me away. And the thing that really kind of impacted me the vocalizations on your 25th anniversary video Was that one of the musicians oh yes, that's one of our musicians.
Ashwini:Yes.
Nick Petrella:That was just amazing.
Ashwini:just percussive, so that's it yeah, that's a deep um tradition in our, in our work. So the, the vocal percussion, that is also played, and so there's a spoken tradition and a rhythm and an instrumental tradition and it is the basis of that's how we train. We, from the very beginning, dancers for years only learn to spoken vocalization, and so you can understand how that cadence of the vocalization mirrors or does the dance come first or does the vocalization come first. They must go absolutely together and it trains your body to respond to music and respond to that, that consistent heartbeat that we have. And so that gets more and more complicated and complex as we go down the dance road.
Andy Heise:So, as an NPR junkie, I was excited to see your segment on Weekend Edition. What role do media appearances and things like that play in the promotion or advertising or telling the story of your company?
Aparna:We're, as we've talked about a lot, we're very family oriented and that was a really fun segment to be interviewed for. I think it's a really big. It's kind of like an integral part of this idea of communicating our story and making sure that there's education and knowledge about all the different aspects we're doing. When there are interviews especially, I think, radio interviews. But print and radio interviews reviews, previews, articles like that they just provide a layer of understanding that, because we're not the ones directly having to tell, it's somebody else even this podcast, right, you came up with the questions because we're so involved in what we're doing we don't necessarily know what other people don't know or want to know. So I think in terms of positioning and educating and communicating in this country, it's very important and I sort of oversee this as well, but usually, again, it's the venue's responsibility to facilitate that in their region and their media market. But yes, we've been fortunate to have quite a lot of press coverage over the years.
Andy Heise:Great Rani Aparna Ashwini. We've reached the point of the interview where we ask all of our interviewees the same three questions, and this first question is what advice would you give to others wanting to become an arts entrepreneur? An arts entrepreneur?
Ranee:I would say have high, very strong technique, strong, excellent skills, love your work and don't get disappointed.
Ashwini:You have to keep going. I would say remember every day that the art form that you're practicing is an ocean and there's no ego in it. We're all trying to improve. Do what you do with truth, and that will carry you through.
Aparna:Because I think Ronnie and Nuparna really talked about the artistic side of things, which is obviously the most important way that you want to be seen and put your foot forward, so that you have again those two aspects balancing nicely Okay.
Nick Petrella:What can we do to ensure the arts are more accessible and reaching the widest possible audience?
Aparna:I wish, if I may say I wish that there was more funding for free or very low-cost performances. This is becoming a bigger barrier ticket sales, ticket costs and I know that sometimes I think the people who really can't afford to see these performances are the ones who would most enjoy and benefit from them. So that would, in a perfect world, that would be something that I would wish for.
Ranee:I would say free performances to school children, because that's a fresh mind and it would really help to think of it as a maybe a career in their future.
Ashwini:I think you should listen to my sister and my mother. They know exactly what they're talking about.
Andy Heise:Well said, well said. Lastly, what's the best artistic or entrepreneurial advice you've been given? I bet you I could guess what somebody else is going to say, oh, that'd be a fun way to do this, yeah.
Aparna:I think I don't know which one is going to say it, but our teacher always quotes to thine own self, be true, and she has always done that and it has never guided any of us, I think incorrectly. Is that what yesterday? I?
Ashwini:told my, I told my mother, I said Alarmine Valide tells us to do everything with truth, If that's your art, if that's your business, if it's whatever you do, but everything with your own truth.
Ranee:So yes, Ashwini, you are correct and I agree to both of them Okay.
Nick Petrella:That's great. It's a great way to end the interview. Rani, aparna and Ashwini it's been wonderful having you on the podcast and just hearing how closely you work together. It felt like we were interviewing one person. Your humility and gratitude just beams through you.
Ranee:Thank you.
Aparna:Thank you. It was really really wonderful to talk to you and also to hear my mom and sister.
Ranee:We always like to see each other.
Andy Heise:Well, thanks so much for your time.
Nick Petrella:Thank you, thank you.
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