Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
#331: Leslie Shampaine (Filmmaker) (pt. 1 of 2)
Today we released part one of our interview with Leslie Shampaine. She's an award-winning filmmaker and teaching artist. After a 13-year career as a professional ballet dancer, she transitioned into documentary film, producing content for PBS, CBS, the Discovery Channel, and National Geographic.
Her feature documentary, Call Me Dancer, has won 23 prestigious awards, including China’s top documentary prize. It has been showcased at major film festivals, New York's Lincoln Center, and screened by U.S. consulates in India and Nepal.
As a Fulbright Scholar in India, she led workshops and screenings, using the universal language of art to foster cross-cultural dialogue. Her dedication to the arts continues to inspire global connections, bridging cultures and fostering understanding through storytelling and mentorship.
Join us to hear Leslie’s fascinating journey as she recounts how she applied what she learned as a leader in one art form to become a leader in another. https://callmedancer.com/the-filmmakers/
Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast. Making art work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.
Andy Heise:Hi Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners. My name is Andy Heiss and I'm Nick Petrella.
Nick Petrella:Leslie Shampaine is joining us today. She's an award-winning filmmaker and teaching artist. After a 13-year career as a professional ballet dancer, she transitioned into documentary film, producing content for PBS, cbs, the Discovery Channel and National Geographic. She was part of the production team for the Emmy-winning Kennedy Center Honors, creating over 30 biographical films about American artists. Her feature documentary Call Me Dancer has won 23 prestigious awards, including China's top documentary prize. It has been showcased at major film festivals, new York's Lincoln Center and screened by US consulates in India and Nepal. As a Fulbright scholar in India, she led workshops and screenings using the universal language of art to foster cross-cultural dialogue. Her dedication to the arts continues to inspire global connections, bridging cultures and fostering understanding through storytelling and mentorship. Leslie has many more accolades, so please visit her website in the show notes to read more about her and her works. Thanks for being with us today, leslie.
Leslie Shampaine:Thank you, I'm very happy to be here.
Nick Petrella:You have a varied career, so why don't we begin by having you tell our listeners why you transitioned from dance to film?
Leslie Shampaine:Okay, that's a good question. So, first of all, I was in my 30s when I transitioned from dance to film and I had as most ballet dancers you do it. You start dancing when you're young and you have to be very, very focused. So by the time I was hitting and I had a wonderful career, I worked really hard. I was in New York, I had studied at School of American Ballet, which was a fantastic school, and moved into my first jobs, which was first the Los Angeles Ballet for a couple years, and then I moved over to Europe where I danced for 13 years with different choreographers, but mostly one Hungarian choreographer that I loved. That I stayed danced for 13 years with different choreographers, but mostly one Hungarian choreographer that I loved. That I stayed with for nine years. So dance, like all athletics, is a very short career and when you're in it you never think about transitioning out or what's next, because you have to stay so focused and you also don't want it to ever end. I was fortunate to work in a theater where, in Europe, you're under one roof and it's like a hermetically sealed space of art, because you've got dancers, you've got musicians and the orchestra, who also sometimes it's a symphony orchestra, you've got actors, you've got musicians and the orchestra, who also sometimes it's the symphony orchestra. You've got actors, you've got opera singers and then you have all the people, not just the artists, but all the artisans who support you. So you've got the costume makers and you've got the shoemakers and the makeup people and the hair people who would be you'd see them weaving the hair onto the wigs and they use real hair and they make these incredible wigs for mostly for the operas and, um, and all of the backstage people making the sets. It's, uh, an incredible world, particularly in Europe. Um, I think if you're fortunate to be at the Metropolitan Opera or one of the big theaters in New York or San Francisco, you do experience that, but in Europe every theater is like that.
Leslie Shampaine:And so back to the question why did I transition? Well, you never think about transitioning and you wish that you could be there forever, but as dance has a limit in time, most dancers move into teaching or sometimes choreography, but I knew that that was just not what I wanted to do. I wanted to use my head and I felt I was so happy in this hermetically sealed world of the theater and all these crazy people. But I also was always curious about the rest of the world and about people, and I'd been living in Germany and Switzerland for 12 years and I wanted to do something outside of the theater, but I just didn't know what it was. But what I did know is that I wanted to stop my career at the top of the party.
Leslie Shampaine:So what happens to many artists or dancers, I would say, is that you either stop getting roles or because somebody younger or better comes in, or you get injured, which is common, and you can't do it anymore and you get sidelined. And I was at the top of my career. I was a soloist, I was getting great roles, but I wanted to leave it, leave on my own terms. And so I decided and I also knew that I was getting into my 30s that I wanted to have family, I wanted to have a husband and kids, and I wasn't finding that person in the theater and I needed another career. I didn't know what that career was, but I knew that I should stop and I'll tell you stopping dance. And I knew that I needed to go back to New York City, where I'm from, and I wasn't sure what I wanted to do.
Leslie Shampaine:I had some ideas, but stopping and leaving Europe was the hardest thing I ever did in my life To move from one passion that I loved and had done since I was eight years old and I honestly felt like I was sawing my arm off and it was that painful inside to leave this world. They were my family that painful inside to leave this world. They were my family. But I knew that and that's you know. It's also also the not the lesson, but sort of the. What happens in the art world is that when you make transitions, they're really hard. They're really really hard and sometimes transitions. You don't know why you're transitioning, you're not really sure where you're going, but you know it's the right move and it's scary. So that was a difficult time and I decided that I was first going to do I was going to go back to college because I hadn't finished college and I was going to do dance therapy because I thought, okay, that's helps people and uses my dance, but after the same time I was.
Leslie Shampaine:It was related. At the same time I was also working in film because I had started doing some of this kind of work in in in in Switzerland and I decided that actually dance therapy I need to get a master's degree and it was a lot of it was really hard work doing all those papers. I was in my 30s and I started doing film because it's a visual art form and I realized that I didn't need to go to school and I had all the right pieces to work in it. So that was the long answer.
Nick Petrella:No, well, that's fine, but so it wasn't a cold transition. You did have some experience prior to it.
Leslie Shampaine:I did have a little experience.
Leslie Shampaine:I, when I was in Switzerland and in Germany, I'd been asked to to actually be the like the moderator on a news show because they needed someone who spoke English and it was to be done in English, and so they asked me to step in and I started that and I and then I also had met journalists in Germany and a lot of US, american journalists, and I saw that they had a passion for their field and this was the first time I'd met another, you know, group of people with a profession that had a passion, and they were all overseas and I liked living overseas as well and they had this view of the world, this bigger view of the world, and I was really drawn to that.
Leslie Shampaine:And so I think that this meeting these kinds of people, people and you know, I also enjoyed. You know what's happening and how the world works. So meeting those journalists made a big impression and so I had started to do and these sort of pieces came together when I had opportunities. Somebody asked me if they, if I, would help film the ballet in Switzerland, and I said, sure, I would help, and so I had a little bit of experience.
Andy Heise:Yeah, You're talking, talking about transitions being hard for artists. I'm also thinking, since you made the decision to, to, to leave dance sort of, as you mentioned, sort of at the top of your game. I'm imagining there was also some um outside, some peer pressure there Like what are you doing, why are you doing this? I would imagine people were questioning your decision as well.
Leslie Shampaine:Actually there weren't people questioning my decision, because I think I just made it on my own, knowing that there's a timeline. Just made it on my own, knowing that there's a timeline, and um it. I think when I told my director and some of my mentors that I wanted to retire, they were very shocked that I wanted to do this. But I had already made the decision. I knew there's a timeline. I'm in my 30s, I want to have kids, I want to meet a husband, I want to have another profession. So want to meet a husband, I want to have another profession. So it just made sense. It didn't feel right, but it made sense.
Andy Heise:Gotcha, yeah, yeah.
Leslie Shampaine:And also just one more thing is that a lot of time in the arts people will have opinions about what you do, but it's really important to follow what your heart says and what you think is right and try not to be to listen, but make your own decision.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, that's good advice.
Andy Heise:So can you tell us a little bit more about because my next question is going to be about? It has to do with you know your work at with with major institutions like PBS and National Geographic, but I'm I think there's could you fill in the gap there between you went back to New York and decided to start doing film and then working in those, in those types of, in those areas.
Leslie Shampaine:Um, so I first, what I did at the time was I've cause. I didn't have any experience in film, but I I had a little bit, but I offered myself as an intern so that I didn't have to be paid. And being an intern was my learning experience and I was able to take and also understand what is this field. This is something I wanted to do, but I realized very quickly because when you go from one field so different from being in a theater to doing film, I didn't know what skills I had. I actually thought I had no skills and as dancers, you're, you know, you're you. You have a very prescribed sort of life and I was like, okay, I can sew toe shoes and I can put my makeup on and get on a stage and be responsible, but I didn't know how that any. I didn't know any skill and I hadn't gone to college. So I was like, okay, what skills do I have? That transfer to something else.
Leslie Shampaine:But what I saw is immediately, and I actually wrote back to the dancers to say, oh my God, guys, you have so many skills, you have life lessons that you cannot learn in going to college and you have the ability to persevere. Have the ability to persevere, you have a lot of discipline, you can work with a team, you can work individually. You know there were just so many things that we had built up, but I just didn't realize. And then I realized, of course, later, that also certain things you can learn on the job, and a lot of things you learn on the job, like how to do something, you just need some of the basic tools. And I learned that, yeah, sure, if you wanted to be a doctor or certain professions, yeah, you have to go to college, but certain professions you didn't need college.
Andy Heise:Yeah. So then you later started working with, said, some major institutions like pbs and national geographic and then, but you were also starting to bring your own projects to life. Um, so did you, or do you see yourself as an entrepreneurial artist, or what does that term mean to you?
Leslie Shampaine:um.
Leslie Shampaine:So I I had to look up what does it mean to be an entrepreneur? Like, what is that? So I do know that one of the things before I go there is about storytelling. What I did link and realize later between the stage and film is it is about storytelling and it's what is storytelling. Storytelling is building bridges between people and communities, and that's what art does. So that's what you know.
Leslie Shampaine:Creativity isn't just like creating a piece, but it's how is what does the audience feel? You're not doing it for yourself, you're doing it for the audience, so you're building a bridge to them. And so I looked up you know, okay, what is an entrepreneur? And I was like, okay, what I? I use my favorite tool, which is chat, gpt. And it said, okay, create something from nothing, a project, a company, a movement. And I was like, okay, yeah, I'm good about that. I'm, I feel good about building, putting the pieces together and then take risks to bring, you know, vision. You know, bring some vision to life. I was like, yeah, I can, I like to take risks, I can do that and then solve problems in creative ways yeah, that's me and turn ideas into action and value.
Leslie Shampaine:So that's what I learned on ChatGPT, I was like, okay, yeah, I have all of those attributes. I didn't know, but I definitely have them and I do feel that one is innovating at whether it's dance, film or any of the other kinds of projects I do that you're innovating at the intersection of creativity and impact, because you're connecting the art and the impact with the audience, the people who are going to be seeing it. Um, I don't, I'm sure if you write a book, you might, or maybe do. I mean, I'm sure there are art forms that definitely you're much, maybe much more insular, but in the performing arts it's meant for an audience, yeah, and it's not a single person just doing one thing. Yeah, so yeah.
Nick Petrella:Leslie, you mentioned that you, after you had left ballet, you had spoken with the dancers and said boy, you have a lot of skills. So what I'm wondering is how did your dance career inform your work as a filmmaker?
Leslie Shampaine:So it took a while for me to realize this as well, but what I? The first thing is again, it's about storytelling, and I realized that I've been staring at a stage, you know, for all of these years, and a proscenium stage is this, you know, rectangle, and so is a TV screen. It's rectangle, and it's all about how do you keep people in their seats for two hours so that they don't go and, like, go off and or look on their phones or, you know, leave. They both have the same, uh, the same goal, and they they're both um fields where it's all about teamwork. I mean, a film is not made without you see the credits. There are a lot of people who work on them, and the same in a theater, you only see the people, like in the you go to the theater, you only see the actors on the stage, and in a film, you only see the actors on the stage, but behind is a gigantic group of people who were doing many things and I.
Leslie Shampaine:What I also saw was a funny story my, my, one of my mentors. She was a ballerina, her name's Joyce Coco and she was my mentor when I was dancing. She recently asked me, with the success of my film. She's like Leslie, when did you learn how to make films? And I said, joyce, it was watching you. I watched all the time. She was an amazing artist and I would say, okay, why is she an amazing artist? What is she giving to the audience that people like? What is it that's drawing them to her? And what is it that the choreographer I worked with made it so that people were not.
Leslie Shampaine:Every piece he did, maybe, was successful, but why is one piece successful and one piece not successful? But why is one piece successful and one piece not? So you know, I always my advice to anybody is observe, observe and look at all of the parts. Don't just look at what's in front of you, but look at what's behind, which is why it is important to learn arts and stuff in school and to be part of the theater group. There's all the people behind the stage who are making the costumes, the sets, everything, the musicians, and you know, back to what I said, the proscenium stage is this same exact shape as a TV screen. You have to have music, they have music, it has costumes, it has sets, it has transitions, teams of scores of people working behind the scene, and they are very similar and it's all about how do you tell a story and connect with your audience.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, one of the things I typically bring up is people work in the business and they rarely have time to work on the business, but it sounds like all your life, prior to film, you were in the business. You were actually in the production, but as a director you're outside it. Just enough that you're working on it.
Leslie Shampaine:Right and I think again, you know my advice to anybody is do every role, try everything. Because also, when you like, I had some free time and I wasn't in a company. Also when you like I had some free time and I wasn't in a company, it was early on when I was getting into my first or second company, I helped the seamstress make the costumes and I sat there painstakingly sewing on sequins to this tutu and there was so much effort and it was all had to be hand sewn and I was like, oh my god, the audience looks. They're so far away. Are they really going to see this intricate work?
Leslie Shampaine:But yes, there's a flow of a costume and there's the underneath skirts of a costume. There is so much that makes every piece of you know. When you see the costume designers in a film or on a stage, it's not just like something. That's what you see. There's also what you don't see. How does the skirt move, or something move, or what is the material? There's a whole art in costume making and I think it's really important to understand, sorry.
Nick Petrella:The best way to get empathy. You're actually doing what they do and bet you learned a lot.
Leslie Shampaine:Exactly, and so I also. It's different than Los Angeles, but in LA I mean in Washington and New York, washington DC, which is where I live now. When I started working in documentary, it was common that you could do different fields, like you could try to. You know you'd be a production assistant, you could, you know, assist with camera. You can assist with all different things. And I found that the more I learned about the field exactly what you said, the empathy I could understand what the job, why that job was even there, because sometimes even like there's the whole technology of film, I mean it just it gets you know, there's all, it's always improving and you're oh my God, what is that camera? And I don't know, and you know it's not like you have to know, but there are people who do know. And so to learn who are those people? Why are they experts in their field? Who are the craftspeople who make a film? And understand that.
Leslie Shampaine:And I had a story here in DC, so we did this. It was one of my first reality TV shows. It was called DC Cupcakes and it was about this. It was on TLC and it was about these two sisters who had a cupcake store they still do and it became a really big hit.
Leslie Shampaine:But we had a showrunner who sort of ran everything from LA and when I was giving her resumes because we were trying to staff everybody in Cruet, she saw resumes with people who had different job roles on their resume and she said she was like throwing these resumes away and saying, well, this person is, you know, if she did production management and she did voice and she did this and this and this, and they're just like all over the place, forget it. And she throw the resumes away and I was like, no, the more that person knows, the better they are. And that was how it was on the East Coast. But she had sort of in LA it was like, oh, you do this job, you're that forever, but on the East Coast that was not, that's not the case. And I had a little conflict there to try to convince her that yeah, actually these are really talented people who will, you know, who understand the whole picture, or more of the whole picture.
Andy Heise:So was there a specific tipping point when you realized that you could build a sustainable career outside of dance Once you started doing film? Was there a moment where you said, ah, this is going to work.
Leslie Shampaine:Um, so I don't think there was a tipping point, but I felt that. So I always go to the like the worst case scenario, that's the kind of person I am. Then I can say, okay, that's the lowest platform, so I just can go higher from that. So what was the worst case scenario? Okay, I left ballet. All I thought I could do was, you know, sew toe shoes. But I thought, okay, well, I can get a job at a restaurant in New York or you know food something or who knows you know some easy job to support myself. And then I can try the other things and, um, you know, figure things out. So, um, it wasn't, there wasn't a tipping point.
Leslie Shampaine:Eventually, um, eventually, I realized that my resume was strong enough that I could remove the dance off my resume, because in film people didn't see the connection resume, because in film people didn't see the connection.
Leslie Shampaine:And once I applied for a job and it was a big series uh called Avoiding Armageddon and it was, uh, funded by Ted Turner and it was like an eight-part series for PBS. And um, I was applying and for one of the positions and, um, the guy looked at my resume and I still had dance on there, because at my age I couldn't just like remove the dance because that was still a big part of many years of my life. And he looks at my resume and he says, well, clearly, dance didn't offer you anything for this job in film. And I was like, ah no, on the contrary, it did. And then I started like listing I can work with difficult people, I can work by myself, I ask questions, I always show up, I'm responsible. I went on and on and on and I did get the job. So, but a lot of people wouldn't see that yeah, the connection.
Leslie Shampaine:The connection, yeah, and I actually I'll tell you, I also mentor beginning filmmakers who are, who are trying to get into the career and I read their resumes and I give them my advice on their resumes and I tell them don't remove, cause they're they, they've been told by other people. Oh, don't add that you were in the military. Or don't remove because they've they've been told by other people. Oh, don't add that you were in the military. Or don't add that you did this job. Or don't add that you really like yoga and, um, you know riding your bike.
Leslie Shampaine:I said that makes you a whole person and when you're hiring and I do a lot of hiring you want to see a whole person, not just a piece of a person. And so someone who was in the military, I'm like you know what, you took orders, you had to be there on time, you have a lot of attributes because you were in the military and the things that you had to do. So that's a very, very positive thing. And add what you like to do positive thing and add what you like to do. So once we were hiring, I was at Al Jazeera and in Washington at the news organization and we were hiring someone and both resumes look the same and they all had good qualifications. And then the interest was yoga and something else. And the guy who was gonna hire the position we were talking about together, you know he's like. You know, I really like yoga too and that maybe that's a more mellow person and I need a more mellow person and we hired the person because they did yoga.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, but the resume is your mosaic, right? I mean, it's everything that you are.
Leslie Shampaine:Yeah, and I you know, don't hide from who you are, because you have a lot of attributes and people. Because I read a lot of resumes and I do help people. I'm like you guys, you're not making yourself look good. You have so much more. You know that you need to put up front that tells a story of who you are and gives people information.
Andy Heise:Yeah, I don't want to go too far down the resume rabbit hole here, but those are all fantastic and I'm wondering if it's industry specific too, because I'm thinking like so I teach in a business school and one of the big things that we talk about is that our career center talks about is, you know, a lot of times the first, the first thing that sees your, your resumes, is AI and it's reading and it's looking for all of those jobs, specific skills, and if it doesn't make that first pass, then nobody's no human is actually ever going to hold that resume in their hand. So again, I'm wondering if there's some industry specific you know some industry, you know industry specific practices for those types of resumes.
Leslie Shampaine:Actually I don't have any good advice because it was those kind of jobs with the AI. I know that. I've been told yeah, they just it's. It's not a human in the beginning, and that's what's really hard.
Andy Heise:But to your point too, though, is if you are applying for jobs where it's a cold application, you have no connection to that job. The AI is the. But if you have someone that can kind of shepherd you through that process because you have made a connection, you know someone that can help you make introductions and things like that you're much more likely to pass that step right.
Leslie Shampaine:Definitely. I know that not everybody has a connection, but it's sometimes I would have. I mean, we're not going to talk about the resume thing, but I would have advice about find someone in that company. Connect with them. Go on LinkedIn, connect with them. Maybe they went to your college, Maybe they were at that company a while ago, a few years ago, but a human-to-human connection really makes a difference.
Nick Petrella:All those soft skills and I wonder if AI could even pick up or discern arts from other things, like in a university.
Andy Heise:Yeah, and that's what I mean. I think probably in the creative fields that AI first pass is probably not as common. I'm sure we could figure that out.
Nick Petrella:It's like at a university. How do you equate research in dance or art to?
Andy Heise:physics yeah, yeah, yeah Right.
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