Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
#332: Leslie Shampaine (Filmmaker) (pt. 2 of 2)
Today we released part two of our interview with Leslie Shampaine. She's an award-winning filmmaker and teaching artist. After a 13-year career as a professional ballet dancer, she transitioned into documentary film, producing content for PBS, CBS, the Discovery Channel, and National Geographic.
Her feature documentary, Call Me Dancer, has won 23 prestigious awards, including China’s top documentary prize. It has been showcased at major film festivals, New York's Lincoln Center, and screened by U.S. consulates in India and Nepal.
As a Fulbright Scholar in India, she led workshops and screenings, using the universal language of art to foster cross-cultural dialogue. Her dedication to the arts continues to inspire global connections, bridging cultures and fostering understanding through storytelling and mentorship.
Join us to hear Leslie’s fascinating journey as she recounts how she applied what she learned as a leader in one art form to become a leader in another. https://callmedancer.com/the-filmmakers/
Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast. Making art work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.
Andy Heise:Hi Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners. My name is Andy Heise and I'm Nick Petrella.
Nick Petrella:Leslie Shampaine is joining us today. She's an award-winning filmmaker and teaching artist. After a 13-year career as a professional ballet dancer, she transitioned into documentary film, producing content for PBS, cbs, the Discovery Channel and National Geographic. She was part of the production team for the Emmy-winning Kennedy Center Honors, creating over 30 biographical films about American artists. Her feature documentary Call Me Dancer has won 23 prestigious awards, including China's top documentary prize. It has been showcased at major film festivals, new York's Lincoln Center and screened by US consulates in India and Nepal. As a Fulbright scholar in India, she led workshops and screenings using the universal language of art to foster cross-cultural dialogue. Her dedication to the arts continues to inspire global connections, bridging cultures and fostering understanding through storytelling and mentorship. Leslie has many more accolades, so please visit her website in the show notes to read more about her and her works. Thanks for being with us today, leslie.
Leslie Shampaine:Thank you, I'm very happy to be here.
Nick Petrella:So let's change gears here, leslie, and talk a little bit about Call Me Dancer how did this project come to fruition and how did you raise the funds to produce it? How did this project?
Leslie Shampaine:come to fruition and how did you raise the funds to produce it? So I had been working then in documentary for a good 20 years. I was a producer and I found a production manager and a line producer so what that job is. And I also went into those areas because I was having kids and I didn't want to be going out on the road Right, and it was easier for me to balance family life. But I also realized that my skills were in.
Leslie Shampaine:So what is what is a producer in documentary? It's the organization, it's managerial. I realized that I was love organization and, like um, I learned how to write um budgets. I didn't know I was good in math, but I liked math in school but I didn't know that. Oh, actually I want somebody taught me that I actually was good at, uh, the detail. And so what a producer does is they manage everything. They're like the manager, they're the project manager, they're like putting all of the details together.
Leslie Shampaine:And because I have the ability to work under pressure, like having from my dance career you have to go out on stage, you have to be there. Go out on stage, you have to be there. I was. I start excelling even more when there's a lot of pressure, because then I'm like, okay, you know, and I can put all the pieces together when everybody's you know, I can herd the cats. So I was working as a producer, I was doing production management and I knew how to write a budget and usually none of the films were my own ideas, so I'd never directed a film. No one asked me if I did do any work with ideas, with filmmaking. Usually my ideas were never accepted. They were not mainstream enough and not what TV networks were looking accepted. They were not mainstream enough and not what TV networks were looking for. So I stuck to the producing. But then I, my kids were older and they were entering college and I felt like I want more creativity and I thought, okay, I really want to transition. Do I want to keep doing what I'm doing for the next whatever X years, or do I want to take a chance?
Leslie Shampaine:And this story of Call Me Dancer came to me through the teacher. It's a story about a teacher and a student and their journey together. And the teacher came to me and said Leslie, he's in the dance world and he's a dance teacher. And he said you know, why don't you tell this story? And so, um, because you're from the dance world and you understand this world, and he didn't even know if I could make a film, and he didn't know that I hadn't ever even directed a film. He knew that I had worked on the kennedy center honors for eight years, which were the, and we I worked on the biographical films. Uh, that were these five minute films about each honoree or performing artist, but I wasn't the producer of those.
Leslie Shampaine:I was, you know, doing more the managerial work of it. But he trusted me and I decided that, okay, do I want to try something new? And it was a lot of thought, because at my age, to try something completely new like direct a film by myself and raise the money. Well, first of all, everybody in my field here in DC, don't do it, it's too hard. We don't have independent film here in DC. Most of our film, you know, we all work for broadcasters Discovery Channel, pbs. They give us the money. Here's your money. Make a film that we tell you we want you to make. Or you come up with some ideas and we agree and then I deliver it to them. You know they do all the marketing. They put it on air, that's theirs. They come up with the money.
Leslie Shampaine:So I knew how to do the inside, like of a sandwich. You know I knew how to do the meat meat. But I didn't know how to raise the money and I didn't know how to distribute. But I liked the story and I wanted more creativity in my life. So I said okay and I took the plunge and it was. How did I raise the money. It was very hard. I went to a lot of friends and family to try to raise the money. I had a few grants. I had one wonderful associate, someone, a colleague, who believed in me also in this area. He became an executive producer, john King, and he trusted me and he liked the story and he also gave me some of my first funds, but a lot of the money. And I also had my husband who just believed in me and said just go for it, just go for it. And it was hard.
Nick Petrella:It was really hard, so dialing for dollars sounds like.
Leslie Shampaine:It's yeah.
Nick Petrella:And grants.
Leslie Shampaine:And grants and I never I wrote so many grants. I never got it. I got a couple small ones, but I did never really got. It was hard, and it's hard in artistic endeavors when it's just you. You have to do all the work and um, so I was. I had to learn a lot of new skills editing skills. I never had picked up a camera before, but I needed to do that. So there were a lot of things I had to learn, but I just decided I'm going to try and because it was a topic that I loved, which is dance, that kept me going and that's what helped me persevere through and it's great for the young artists who might be listening to this, thinking that you know they, they don't have to do sales or anything.
Nick Petrella:You absolutely do, it's just in a different format right.
Leslie Shampaine:Yeah, I mean, that's very hard and it's very. I think it's hard for most people to ask for money for yourself. It's one thing if you're asking for something else um, but it's for somebody else or some other product but to ask for yourself is very, very hard did you get better at it?
Nick Petrella:Did I get?
Leslie Shampaine:better at it? Not really. No, it's still uncomfortable for me, it's still hard. And the thing is is that I know very excellent, prominent filmmakers here across the world have won Academy Awards and every time they start a new project it's like starting at the beginning again to find that money, and it is very hard. You have a little more stature because you have something behind you, but for me I never had made a film, I was unknown, I was not a director, I never directed a film, so why should they trust me?
Nick Petrella:Yeah, so that was a really hard sell.
Leslie Shampaine:It was really hard. It was really hard, but um but you succeeded.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, it's up, yeah.
Andy Heise:I did, yeah, you made it happen, and you've received lots of recognition for for call me dancer. Um so, by you know, by by all accounts, it was a success. And but how do you personally define success at this point in your career?
Leslie Shampaine:For me, success is the impact and how it reaches the audience and how the response. So, for instance, when you're, it's the same as when you're dancing. When you're dancing or you're in, you're an actor or you're, it's the same as when you're dancing. When you're dancing and you're an actor or you're a performer on a stage, it's just like it's all black out there. There's 2,000 people, but you have no connection. You leave, you go back to your. You know, you go out the stage door. You never meet anyone. Well, did you make an impact Like, why are you doing this? Why are you killing yourself? And you don't see anybody. You can maybe see the front row of people, but you hope that as a performer, even if you're in the group, you know one of many people that you've made an impact in with a single audience member that they think of something they're, they're touched by something the arts are. Sometimes you just can't explain them, but they, they're another form of communication that that's universal, that reaches all of us. They have no boundaries, doesn't matter where, what country you come from, and you just hope that you have make some kind of impact. So with Call Me Dancer, I am right now. It will be aired on PBS later in the year, and I've been making, working to to create partnerships. What I found is I had to first figure out who was my audience, and with this film and the two audience groups that I focused on are seniors, because it's about a teacher, an older guy, who goes to India. He's American and his sort of his career is washed up and he's a very bitter guy and his life is transformed by the relationships he has with his students and there's a huge transformation within the film. So there's seniors and there's youth, because it's about a young kid who, against all of his family culture, wants to do something that nobody else does and it's not accepted. He wants to go into the arts and they're like are you kidding? We're a poor family, you have to support us, you need a job. These parents put all their money into good education for their son so he'd get out of the taxi driver business, which is what his father was, but he was like no, I want to do what his father was and but he was like no, I want to do, I want to be a dancer, a professional dancer. So for kids, for youth, it's about identity, it's about perseverance, it's about the struggles like in the film. You see, it's difficult, it is not just like a straight path, and that's what life is. It is not a straight path for almost anyone and there are bumps in the road all along the way, until your last dying day, until the last day when you take your last breath. There are bumps in the road. So it's how do you persevere through it? So I have my two audience groups. Now I sort of forgot the question. But what is my success? Success is the what is my what's success? Yeah, success is the impact.
Leslie Shampaine:And so, for instance, the very first screening we had in santa barbara, at the first festival, santa barbara film festival, a young man comes up to my, my protagonist, who was there with me because we were doing q and a's, and he said to this to me she said you know, I always wanted he must have been like 24, 25 said said I always really wanted to be a filmmaker or to be involved in film.
Leslie Shampaine:But everyone told me don't do it, it is not, it's too hard, there's no money in it. You know, obviously he's from the LA region don't do it. So he said I took a different path, a career path, but I see this film and I see that, against all these obstacles, you followed your heart, you followed your passion. I want to now go back to what I really wanted to do and try to become a filmmaker. And when, after it was all over, I said Manish, we can't wish for anything more, that means impact. You have touched this guy's life by you, life, by him seeing this film and your story. And so when I had screenings here where seniors open up to me and say start connecting things about their lives and they reveal them, personal things to me, and I'm like OK, I mean, I can't wish for anything more than that.
Nick Petrella:Yeah.
Leslie Shampaine:That's impact for me.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, the engagement, how much, say, did you have in the creative direction of the film?
Leslie Shampaine:Um, so, as the director and um, I had, I have the final say. I have the final say. But people do things differently. Like I do things by consensus, like I always want to hear what everybody thinks and then I make my own decision. And because I always feel like I don't really know all the answers, so I want to see, I want to ask other, well, what do you think? What do you think? What do you think?
Leslie Shampaine:Now, a lot of people get really pissed off at me because most, a lot of people are like they know what they want and they, they are very clear as a director, this is my vision. And then I go and ask them and I'm like, okay, thank you, that was really. You know, it opens my mind. And then, but maybe I don't follow what they say, and then they get upset Well, why did you waste my time? Ask me if you're not going to follow what I say, because I like to hear, I like to hear everything. At the end I'll make my own decision, but I like to. I just feel like, you know, we see things just through our own lens and our own glasses and what am I missing? So what didn't I hear? What story. What sensitivity did I miss? You know, here I am telling a story about India. Well, I'm not Indian, I'm not from a poor family like this kid is. So what am I missing?
Leslie Shampaine:And I like even the final finishing of the film we well here about, like you know you know, difficulties in directing like a story is that my team, we got stuck in the editing and we spent two months sort of spinning our wheels about one part of the story and I felt like it should go in one way. But they were like three against one. No, this is not going to work, leslie. And they kept giving me all the reasons why it didn't work and I kept giving them like, well, let's try this. But they never tried it full heartedly and I was too insecure. And then finally I was like, okay, we're gonna do it my way. And then it worked. So I finally pushed my way through, but it was hard.
Nick Petrella:But having those voices in the room does sharpen you.
Leslie Shampaine:Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. I don't know, I don't think again't think again, like I mean, that's why you have an editor who reads your work. You know, for a book or um, it might not be in every art form, but uh, filmmaking is collaborative yeah, yeah.
Andy Heise:So both ballet and documentary filmmaking are intensely competitive fields. How have you approached competition, either with others or with yourself, throughout your career?
Leslie Shampaine:like to say that thank god I did not grow up now with social media, because when I grew up we didn't. I couldn't see everything that was available to be seen. There was no video. I used to go to the library. I lived in new york city. I would go to the library to see dance films. That was the only way I could see dance films.
Leslie Shampaine:I am not a competitive person and and I feel that if I had known, like if I go on the you know social media now and I see these incredible dancers, well, you're only seeing a tiny piece of them, of people. You're not seeing a whole person. You're not seeing. You know, just because you are talented in a art form or in any field doesn't mean you're going to be successful at it, because there's the whole person that makes up a. You know a career or a profession and, um, I would have probably not. I wouldn't have had the ability to compete in that way if I had seen social media, so I just had.
Leslie Shampaine:The thing I tell people is you have to have like a horse on a race, you have to have the blinders and just not look. You have to look inside and keep going and you do have to connect with outside. But if you start seeing, you know I was in an incredible school and there were students who were much more talented than I was, but I just kept like, ok, but I really want to do this, I really want to do this. And it's it's hard because it is so competitive. The same with making this film. Everybody told me don't do it, and then I was like I don't know, I really want to try, yeah.
Andy Heise:Yeah, I don't know, I really want to try.
Leslie Shampaine:Yeah, yeah, I don't know. It was probably a mistake. I mean, it came out really well, but I had no idea what I was getting myself into. I didn't know how many sleepless nights I'd have making this film it took me five years to just to film it and how many sleepless nights of like, when is this going to end, and how much money is this going to take? And and then, how is it going to turn out? Did I waste eight years and it doesn't turn out well?
Nick Petrella:It's hard. The thing is with talent. It doesn't equal success. That's just one. That's just one component. And then, regarding social media, who puts anything out there that doesn't show you in the best light?
Leslie Shampaine:Exactly.
Nick Petrella:You know it's.
Leslie Shampaine:Yeah, it's hard, it's very hard, it's very, I feel, for young people today.
Andy Heise:Right.
Leslie Shampaine:Because there's so much looking out and with a lot of fields, with everything and with development, and you have to look in, you have to look at yourself lot of interns in the different you know film, you know production companies I've been at. I'm always saying it's not a straight line, it's like stepping stones and you might go to the right, you might go to the left and there's no wrong step. Everything teaches you something. And if you went to the right and took that job and you're like, oh my God, I don't like this job, then don't stay in it, just leave. No, it's not going to hinder you that you were in a job for six months or a year and you didn't like it. But learn from it. Why didn't you like it? And I also tell a lot of young people learn from it, why didn't you like it? And I also tell a lot of young people you're not really going to know until you're like 30, what you're good at. You need to just like, acquire everything, pull it all together. Like I didn't know what I was good at, even as a dancer. Okay, I got the roles, but I didn't know what I didn't know myself. And I always say just give it time and I always say just give it time.
Leslie Shampaine:Unfortunately, there's this pressure of time which we're all under. Okay, high school, now you've got to go to college, now you have to know what you want to do. Well, now you still have. That was the learning, now is the journey. But it's scary because they think, okay, I'm supposed to get out of college and know what I'm going to do and I have to be clear about it and I'm like no, you're not. I know it's scary, I know it feels like I'm a loser because I'm not clear what I want to do. But not until your 30s you're going to be like you know what I don't like working? I realized I don't like working in big companies because I felt like I was so small and I'd rather be a bigger fish in a smaller pond and I liked working with teams.
Andy Heise:Yeah.
Leslie Shampaine:And I realized what I didn't like and what I did like.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, Leslie. What were some of the challenges you hadn't anticipated when getting into filmmaking.
Leslie Shampaine:Well, the challenges with making my own film were financial. Raising that money Was your question. What are the challenges getting into film making that transition?
Nick Petrella:Were there challenges that you hadn't anticipated, because I would assume that you knew that raising money might be difficult.
Andy Heise:Was there anything? Things you didn't know? You didn't know.
Leslie Shampaine:Yeah, I didn't choose my team all correctly in the beginning, so there was a bit of um, there were a few problems and I sadly lost a few friends along the way because of it, because of conflict of interest and um, and that was really sad for me. Um and um. I just hadn't anticipated how difficult it would be and how, like, covid made a big impact. You know, suddenly there's COVID. We thought the film was going to end and we had our tickets to go to India to film the ending and then COVID hits. Oh man, march 20th 2020 is when we were going to go finish the end of the film. So then it's like when is the film going to end and what do you do now? And so they were, unfortunately, with a documentary. The biggest question is when are you going to stop filming? When is your story done? And it's yeah, that was hard.
Andy Heise:That's interesting yeah, that was. That was hard. Yeah, it's interesting. So, when you think about the legacy that you're building, whether in film, or you've mentioned mentoring quite a bit throughout this, throughout this interview what do you hope? What do you hope that all adds up to?
Leslie Shampaine:Um. What does it all add up to?
Andy Heise:What do you hope, yeah, hope, yeah, I mean. So it's kind of the success question too. I mean, you impact, right, you're impacting your audience.
Leslie Shampaine:I think this is maybe a similar thing, but maybe more on a personal level than than than through your artistic work I think that, um, that what surprised me most at my age is that my kids were already in college, I already had my dance career, I was working in film, but then I made this film and then suddenly it was a big success. And I hadn't anticipated that and I was just like, oh my god, look at what happened and it's getting so much recognition. And then, two, I applied, on a whim, for a Fulbright scholarship and I got it. And I couldn't believe it. I was like I thought, oh, you had to be a college graduate to get a Fulbright. And no, I was wrong. They also, uh, choose artists.
Leslie Shampaine:And I, what I really realized is, just keep going, there is no point of success. It just like, oh my gosh, you can still just keep building and building, and building, and to no end. And I, I'm a very curious person and I don't like to be bored. So there's always something, there's always something to do or to give to others. And so I have a husband who's a professor and you know, he just doesn't stop writing books and he just keeps ideas, keep going. And I think we're a match made in heaven, because I'm the same, I'm just curious about the world and hopefully we have our health so that we can just keep going until the end.
Nick Petrella:Keep creating. That's great. Before Andy kicks off the final three questions, I'd just like to see if you could talk about how your team markets. Call Me Dancer.
Leslie Shampaine:So I have two agents, one in New York and one in Zurich. The one in Zurich does worldwide and she was responsible for getting our co-production with German and French television, which was really wonderful that she got that, and then other um, so that was important and my agent here in New York I mean, there were a lot of doors shut in our face. No, no, no, no, like well, this is not a Netflix film, it doesn't hit the analytics. Um, but, um, you know it doesn't have sex, it doesn't have violence, have violence. You know there's no incest, there's no this, there's no that it doesn't fit the analytics. I'm not a famous person. There's not a famous person in the film. So, no, thanks. So, but my agent did get us this recently. We were licensed by AARP and they, just last week, had shown the film in a launch event. It was a live launch and we had over 4,000 people watching and live chatting during it and just all their comments and me writing back. It was wonderful, all their comments and me writing back. I was, it was wonderful, and that was my agent who did that as well, as she has been working on the PBS deal.
Leslie Shampaine:So then there's that's one way, and then there's the other way which I'm doing, which is the educational and impact. I'm working with schools. I'm working with DC public schools, I'm working with Pittsburgh public schools. There's going to be a curriculum created because I got a grant recently and I am working with schools in this area of DC to um for, uh, showing the film and then having artists led activities so that it's experiential, not that you see the film and then having artists led activities so that it's experiential, not that you see the film and just talk about it. They see the film and then they do an artist-led activity about identity, about perseverance, um and um. What does that mean to them?
Leslie Shampaine:Whether it's through writing a hip-hop song, because this dancer starts as a hip dancer, hip hop song, the lyrics, doing a dance, doing something with music, fine art. So I'm working on that side as well, as I'm also working with seniors. So with AARP, to create screening the film along with dance in a chair or any kind of active. I did in an intergenerational dance, a hip hop dance with seniors and youth and then people saw the film. So I'm trying to create programming or wellness programming for seniors and that's the sort of those are the distribution. A film isn't just distributed, like it can be, but it's not like you just go to Netflix and here take the film and that's the end of it. You can do that, but usually for independent film you need to do more and it's like why are you making this film? Just you know, and so I want that impact to be there. So I'm doing a lot of work, making partnerships with other organizations.
Nick Petrella:It's great, a lot of things.
Andy Heise:Well, Leslie, we've reached the point of the interview where we ask all of our interviewees the same three questions, and the first question is what advice would you give to others wanting an arts entrepreneur?
Leslie Shampaine:Perseverance and heartache they go together and there's always heartache in all endeavors like this. But embrace it, because that's what makes you a whole person, and persevere, because it's not easy, but just follow your heart, follow your passion and keep going, and I guess that's my advice.
Nick Petrella:Great. What can we do to ensure the arts are more accessible and reaching the widest possible audience?
Leslie Shampaine:Support arts. So okay. So the question is what do you do to create arts and help create arts and support the arts, support arts within your community? I dedicated the film at the very end to the sponsor. There within the film there is a woman, an indian woman, who sponsors this young man and his journey because he didn't have the funds, and I dedicated the film to her because the patrons of the arts are never really are not recognized, and if we didn't have the patrons, we wouldn't have the art form, like if we didn't have the Medici family, we wouldn't have the Renaissance.
Leslie Shampaine:And you need the patrons. So, and I say to people, you are a patron of the arts. Just by going to the movie, buying your ticket for $10 or $15 and being there, you're a patron of the media arts. So participate in arts and don't think that you can't do something. You can just go and buy a ticket to that theater, that community theater, support them and you are being a patron. We can't exist without the patrons. So that's one way. Or you can actively be a participant by supporting your community, by being involved as well.
Andy Heise:Lastly, what's the best artistic or entrepreneurial advice you've been given?
Leslie Shampaine:And I just can't give up because I'm so obstinate and stubborn, but sometimes I'm wasting my time and my resources, and my own resources. It costs money, and even in jobs regular jobs that you have Well, maybe going in that one direction so much is just not worth doing it, um, and sometimes you avoid doing things because of procrastination. So time is money. Don't, um, do what directly impacts your momentum and your mission and try to stay on track Perfect.
Nick Petrella:Well, thanks for coming on the podcast, Leslie. It was great hearing how your worldview shapes your creativity. It's great having you, thank you.
Leslie Shampaine:Thank you very much, hearing me ramble on.
Andy Heise:This is great. Thanks, Leslie.
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