Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
#351: Jennifer Zmuda (Photographer) (pt. 1 of 2)
Today we released part one of our interview with Jennifer Zmuda. She’s an Emmy Award-winning photographer, director, and the owner of Jennifer Zmuda Photography.
With a lifelong background in dance and movement, Jennifer specializes in capturing the artistry of dancers and movement-based performers through both photography and film. Her works have been featured in Good Housekeeping, The Washington Post, Dance Magazine, and numerous other national and local publications.
Tune in to hear how her relationship-building approach to business helped her company prosper. https://jenniferzmuda.com/
Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast, Making Art Work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion, and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent, or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts, Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.
Andy Heise:Hi Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners. I'm Andy Heise.
Nick Petrella:And I'm Nick Petrella. Jennifer Zmuda is on the podcast today. She's an Emmy Award-winning photographer, director, and the owner of Jennifer Zamuta photography. With a lifelong background in dance and movement, Jennifer specializes in capturing the artistry of dancers and movement-based performers through both photography and film. Her unique ability to merge her deep understanding of movement with visual storytelling has led to her work being featured in Good Housekeeping, The Washington Post, Dance Magazine, and numerous other national and local publications. In 2017, she won her first Emmy for the short format dance film Vaulted. Jennifer's website is in a show notes so you can learn more about her and her business. Thanks for coming on the podcast, Jennifer.
Jennifer Zmuda:Absolutely. I'm so happy to be here.
Nick Petrella:Why don't we begin by having you tell us how you transitioned from the world of dance to photography and filmmaking?
Jennifer Zmuda:Yeah, it was really out of uh a need. So in the dance world, you know, we're we're low budget. We're we're trying to do all the things all at once. Uh I went to school for my master's, and when I came out, I uh started my own dance company, worked with a college, creating uh dance program through a college. And you have performances that you need to tell people about. And there is no support in a lot of places to then create the assets that you need to advertise and market the performances. So I was wearing all the hats and I decided, well, my dad had a camera. I've played with it a little bit. Um, I'm gonna use that to try to create some photos. And at that point in time in our world, it was like 2006. So it was very photo driven and not as much video driven. Um, it was terrible at first. My very first photos were like, what is that? I can't see anything. I got better, of course. Um, but a lot of it was, yeah, just learning that like we needed to be able to show people in the world what we were doing to advertise it to get people to come and see the works and things.
Nick Petrella:So it was really almost practical based. So it was more marketing based. And you know, and for the people listening, you really should go to her site because the the stunt, the photographer and uh the photography and the uh videos are really visually stunning. So you just learned over the years? You you hadn't gone to school for anything, right? You just did this yourself.
Jennifer Zmuda:I hadn't. I think uh I took one community college class as an adult, um, which was helpful to see that like some people set rules and there are rules about the art form. Uh, and it was good to learn some of those rules. Uh, but ultimately, yeah, it was just a lot of experimentation. Um, you know, the world of YouTube is an amazing place where we get to share ideas. So if I ever came up with a I know this thing is possible, but I don't know how to do it, if quick search, find the other people that have done it and uh explore and experiment with their kind of processes as well.
Nick Petrella:So I know Andy has a question coming up here, but I just want to have one follow-up question. When did you transition into video? Was it about when YouTube came out, or did you realize that video was more engaging?
Jennifer Zmuda:Um, I wish that I had jumped onto YouTube right in the beginning because I think I might be very wealthy right now. I'm not. Um, it was it was a lot with my position currently where I work at Ballet Met. Uh when I came in, they had a a couple of different pro uh photographers that they worked with for different projects, but they didn't have a holistic person in staff. Uh getting into the position, then having the support of an organization to be able to say, here are some tools and supplies, like do what you will, uh allowed for me to open up into that world. And obviously with social media, I think around it was around 2011 that I I came into that position. So um, not the beginning, but you know, not where we are currently. So it was easy to kind of experiment with some things and try out some footage. And again, when I look back at at those pieces of work, they're embarrassing. Um, but it was a good place to start and uh and and learn again a different kind of medium, but still that exploration of showing what we're doing, expressing, conveying thoughts and ideas to get people interested in in what we're working on and doing.
Andy Heise:Great.
Jennifer Zmuda:Yeah.
Andy Heise:And so you're um, I think you said this, you're you're a full-time staff member at the ballet. Is that yeah?
Jennifer Zmuda:So I uh we live in the world, I think, where I don't know if anybody else we we work many jobs.
Andy Heise:Absolutely.
Jennifer Zmuda:We don't just the work, the one job. So I am full-time on staff with Ballet Met and have been since about 2011. I think that's when I moved here.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Jennifer Zmuda:Um, but I have perpetually been running my own company as well on the sidelines. Um, it's definitely since the pandemic happened and having, you know, the need to like really create some more security, it's developed into more of an agency and me working more professionally with corporations and for-profit organizations and colleges and things. Um previous to that, I was doing projects here and there with studios and wherever, you know, families and wherever the the project was, I kind of jumped to it. But it has uh it has evolved over time to becoming a more of my primary source of income as well, too. So I still do ballet met because I love them. I love working with dancers, I love the creative process and and all that is there. Um, but you know, trying to support support the family on my own and um you know, hopefully have a retirement.
Andy Heise:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, I mean that's uh I think probably every artist we talk to on the podcast is doing more than one thing, and we know that that's a pretty common uh career portfolio, if you will. Um and ballet it I would imagine there's some seasonality with ballet med as well. There is up times and some downtimes or whatever.
Jennifer Zmuda:Absolutely. Summer, uh so during the regular season, we've got the company going, we've got education going, we've got the academy going. Um over the summer, when the company is released from their contracts, um, it is a bit more um focusing on the academy and then just trying to like do prep work for the coming season. So it definitely gets a little bit lighter in the summer, but it is it is a year-round thing from preparing or actually actively doing things. So yeah.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, I bet's especially for you. And in the end, right, the marketing aspect of it.
Jennifer Zmuda:Yeah. Yeah. The dancers come back sometimes from summer break and they're like, Oh, what did you do for the summer? I was like, I was here working.
Andy Heise:Yeah.
Jennifer Zmuda:I didn't get to go in any fancy sabbatical somewhere. Yeah.
Andy Heise:Somebody had to shoot.
Jennifer Zmuda:That was us. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Andy Heise:So And at what point did you realize you could build a sustainable business around your creative skill set? You know, you you had the the dance programs that you were building, and then moving into sort of the the media aspect of it. Was there a moment when that vision sort of all started to come together, or was it more sort of a gradual progression?
Jennifer Zmuda:It's I I definitely I always do this hand gesture that you won't be able to see because it's a podcast, but where it's like a crossfade between my dancing teaching, choreography career and this photography video career that I have. Um, there was definitely a a a starting event that was like, oh wow, I can make money from this. Um, I had been creating photography work for my own company and for the college program. And one of the studios I worked for saw it and was like, you're better than the guy that we're paying to do this for our studio. Can you come and and take photos for our studio for our, you know, they do like the costumes and the poses with the groups and the individuals. Um, and I was very naive and was like, yes, I can do that. And then you learn, like, wow, there's a lot I didn't know about how this works. Um, but they were very accommodating. I mean, I think knowing that like I had never done something like that before, there was a lot of um accepting to, okay, we'll figure out how to do this together, uh, which was really, really helpful, I think, to have that grace of it's okay that you don't know what this is because we're gonna figure it out. Um, which I don't think as you get older, you get that much grace on the forgiveness of not knowing what you're doing sometimes. But um yeah, so that moment I was like, wow, I can I'm I made money from this. Um so let's keep rolling with it. And it just was again a slow crossfade into this is now, you know, what I do. I still do teach dance, and I'm still obviously in the dance world, but like this is the prime this is I am a photographer and a filmmaker. I'm not a choreographer and a teacher anymore.
Andy Heise:So yeah. Well, and it, you know, that it's probably obvious to to listeners and to other to us here, but certainly that dance expertise and knowledge maybe is is is helpful in you capturing those those moments and sort of knowing what are the shots that we need for these types of promotions or for the website or social media or whatever.
Jennifer Zmuda:Yeah. And I think that's actually one of the really beautiful things about having the dance experience in my body and having done it for so long to then be able to photograph it. Um, people say that, like they if they don't know me and they're like, wow, you really know what you're doing. I'm like, yeah, I do. Like I can, I can feel it. When they go to do something, I feel the movement inside of me. So I know when that moment's gonna happen. And not always, like there's there's some mystery to it with different choreographers and things, but a lot of the times it's a very visceral thing to feel the choreography and and capture those moments, which is really cool, I think.
Nick Petrella:That is cool. It's gotta be much more intuitive for you than say the the average videographer, shortly.
Jennifer Zmuda:100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nick Petrella:Jen, what were some of the challenges you faced as you launched the agency? And if you started all over again, would you do anything differently?
Jennifer Zmuda:Yeah. Uh imposter syndrome.
Nick Petrella:Oh, that's fine.
Jennifer Zmuda:I think that that's huge in the arts world, just in general. Um but like all my focus growing up was on dance, was on this career of dance, choreography, education, you know, the body and anatomy and how those work, the all of that worked together with dance. And then switching into, and I went to college for it, I went and got my master's for it. At no point in time was I smart enough to think I should also minor in business, because in my head at that age, I was gonna do this thing and people were gonna hire me, and I wasn't gonna have to worry about that side of things. So uh the business side of it is really where the challenges were of understanding finances, how to how to do taxes, um, how to set up procedures and hire people and have, you know, a process in place and a communication uh structure in place to be able to make sure that the quality of the product's happening. All of the logistical sides of things really is where that um constant state of like, oh gosh, I can do better. I can do better. This this the postmortem sort of like we need to make some changes on how how all that's working and just not feeling like I had the background uh already built for that. So if I could go back, uh I would, I would have taken a minor in business of some sort. Um, but also early on been uh seeking out a mentor who was willing to show me that side. And I think that's still something I think about. Um I I definitely feel like as a creative person, I have ADHD. So I have those ideas of like, oh, I can build this product. And it's like I know how to, I know how to think about it and I know how to market it, but I don't know how to build it and sell it.
Speaker 3:Right.
Jennifer Zmuda:And those ports parts of the world I feel like sometimes are um not secret, but they're they're part of an inner circle that you've got to be in with those people to hear those processes and how it works and how to make it happen.
Nick Petrella:So and for the listeners, by business you mean arts entrepreneurship.
Jennifer Zmuda:Yes, absolutely. Yes.
Nick Petrella:Just for clarity's sake.
Jennifer Zmuda:Yes.
Nick Petrella:You know, the other thing, and Andy can can attest to this, I think a lot of our guests, well, I don't know what a lot means, but uh a good portion of our guests say they have imposter syndrome.
Jennifer Zmuda:Yeah.
Andy Heise:Oh yeah.
Nick Petrella:That that comes up quite a bit.
Andy Heise:Yeah. I see it in my students as well frequently.
Jennifer Zmuda:It's a yeah, it's it's it's there. And I think it's go ahead.
Andy Heise:No, please.
Jennifer Zmuda:I was just uh this might be an insult. So you can cut this part out if you need to. But I I think it's there for the people that are thinking. I I see those out there in the world who don't have it. And I don't it's like, wow, they don't even know that it's a possibility to have imposter syndrome. Like they don't know what they're doing, but they're still doing it. And so to sit back and be like, I know that I don't know what I'm doing, and so now I'm scared to do it. Yeah. I wish that I could just kind of take away that knowledge of that fear and just do it blindly because you still succeed, you know.
Andy Heise:I'm I'm glad you said that because uh I I think it has you know hypothesis here. Maybe it has to do with like the reflective nature of artists, like we're constantly thinking about like who we are and what we're doing in the world and like what's you know, um and and and if you know it's sort of that the more you know, the the the more you know you don't know. And therefore it's like so therefore it's like, well, I d I who am I to be doing this? Like I know there's other people that are better than me at this because also I think that um art school, dance school, music school, whatever sort of instills that uh not instills, but reinforces that type of of mindset that you always are trying to be better than the other person or catch up to the person ahead of you or whatever that is, right?
Jennifer Zmuda:Yeah. And I think it's the critiquing phase, right? We create something, we have a class collaboration of critiquing it. I don't think that they do that in business school. Maybe a little bit. I do not, but like I don't think they do it to the depth. And plus when you create something, it's from such an intimate place.
Nick Petrella:That's right.
Jennifer Zmuda:Whereas with business, it's like I did these six steps and I produced this thing. Um, but with art, it's like I felt something, I had an inspiration, I had an idea, and I wanted to put it out there, and then someone critiquing it from their perspective is uh it's it's a very uh insecurity building thing.
Nick Petrella:Well, you have to be in a vulnerable space. It doesn't matter if you're taking photography, standing on stage singing or whatever.
Jennifer Zmuda:Yep, yeah. Yes, yes.
Andy Heise:Critique culture. I think that is absolutely something we could use more of um in our society as a whole, but certainly outside of the arts as well. Yeah.
Jennifer Zmuda:Yeah, 100%.
Andy Heise:So we we touched on this a little bit, uh especially when you were talking about 2006 when you were getting started, uh, in a world that's highly image driven and now like you like you said, video driven even. Uh what strategy you've helped what strategies have helped you differentiate your work and maybe not just artistically, but maybe in the way that you actually operate your your your business.
Jennifer Zmuda:Yeah. Uh I like that question because it did challenge my mind of like, oh, how do I do things differently? Uh so I'm gonna pull some from some things that I've heard other people say to me when they're giving compliments in a genuine nature of just feeling like uh the connection of me as a person and caring about what they're doing. Uh, when I look at what else is out there in those um larger than me agencies, it does have a sense of get this contact form, you're gonna talk to somebody else, you're gonna get assigned to a different team of people that are gonna come in and do this thing, and then you will never talk to them again. Um, so the intimate nature of, and that's what I've always loved about dance too. When you work with people that you learn, you become part of this group. There's there's a network, there's a community that gets built with working with artists and creatives. And I take that, I believe, into what I do as an entrepreneur of giving that sense of feeling of connection to the people that I work with and the projects that we're working on are a holistic thing that's built together and not just assembly lined thrown out there, you know? Um and I think that with the imagery too, and there's trends that come across the world, like right now. Well, maybe it's already passed by now, but that blurry photo thing that's happening where it's just a little bit of camera motion happening to it, and uh it looks like a photo that was taken in the 70s or the 60s where it's just not quite crisp. Um, and that's the big rage. And I can see the beauty of it. I can see why the nostalgia's there for it. Um, I I try not to let my creative vision get pulled into those deeply. I might experiment and try and play with it a little bit, but I think throughout my goal is to always create the most authentic, pure, true product to whatever we're doing without adding in those extra I'm gonna call them trends, but just you know different visual uh moments in time.
Nick Petrella:It kind of seems like a almost a concierge service instead of a big corporation. I think that's what you're doing. It's it to the first part of your answer there.
Jennifer Zmuda:Right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they're getting me. Yeah.
Andy Heise:There's a there's a question I was about to ask later, but maybe I'll just ask it now since we're sort of on that topic. And I d I think um the thing that you're talking about here is is reflected in the services that you offer and the way that you talk about those services on your website. Um you frame your services around ongoing monthly support versus solely project. I mean, you have project-based option too, right? But but the first three or f two or three options are more of like the relationship building, and I want to work with you over a period of time to develop um what you need versus just jump in and do what you what what you think you want and then jump out.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Andy Heise:So what yeah, what led you to that model and how is you know, did that change over time or how does it help? Yeah.
Jennifer Zmuda:Uh a lot of the work that I do did in the beginning was project-based, and I got the feeling of what that was, and how you just you get thrown in, you do the thing, and then you leave. Um and you leave feel I leave feeling like, oh, I wish I had more time to to perfect or finesse that thing that I didn't like in that project. But you don't because the project's done and they've moved on to something different. So with the pro with the the monthly retainer program, I'm thinking long-term about how, and I think that's the process of an artist. We start somewhere, we grow, and we get better. And so I think about that with businesses and the people that I work for, that we're gonna start here and we're gonna learn about each other and find ways to begin. And then we're just going to refine and make it better and adapt to how they might pivot in their organization or in their business. And I can pivot with them and think long term about what that could look like and be able to offer that vision versus being locked into this box of this this one project we need to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Jennifer Zmuda:So I really like the long-term nature of that and relationship building and learning who they are and exploring that more deeply is really it's really fun and interesting for me.
Andy Heise:It's less less transactional.
Jennifer Zmuda:Yeah, 100%.
Andy Heise:Well, and when you show up for that shoot, you have a broader context for why this shoot is happening or why we're capturing this event or how we're gonna capture this or whatever that is, right? It's not just okay, I'm here, what are we doing? You know, like which which allows you to, you know, again, be a little more uh intentional, maybe about what it is you're doing. Have you found this strategy to be uh helpful? Or is it do some people like uh immediately sort of recognize the value of it and others are like, no, I just want you to show up and do this thing?
Jennifer Zmuda:A little both. A little both.
Andy Heise:Yeah.
Jennifer Zmuda:I think and it's I the world we're in and where organizations are and what's happening with um, you know, funding and where sources of funds are coming from. Uh there's a stress of thinking long-term because it's that, ooh, it's money. I I'm gonna have to pay you again next month and the next month and the next month. And that seems to cause stress. Um, even though the product and the value's there, there still is the the you know, down to the line of we've got to pay for these services. Um whereas with the project, they've got it in their budget line, they know how much they can spend, and it's that one time cost to accomplish this thing. Um, and a lot of times organizations will try to maximize that in a way uh which is good and bad to a certain extent, of we're gonna do the whole season. We're gonna, we're gonna find content for the entire season in this one day shoot, um, which is smart. It's good, but it also is a little bit limiting on the depth and things change. So as the season goes and something changes with any part of the performance or the the work that we're doing, you don't have that content to then adapt and pivot with it too. So it's a little hard to limit to that one time.
Nick Petrella:I have a question about uh billing for so I understand the subscription approach, but when you are when someone wants a project, so more than just a headshot, just a couple things, when you're billing, do you bill for the project, give them an estimate for the project, or do you just bill hourly and say it won't exceed? So how do you do that?
Jennifer Zmuda:Yeah, um, I that's always a struggle, and that was part of the imposter syndrome of like, how do you bill for something? Uh so I looked at a lot of uh examples uh that were available on the internet of how different people did different things, and I ultimately decided that what works for me is to break it down into line items of what that project's specifically gonna take, because I don't every project's different, everyone's got a different component to it, a different set of needs for equipment of post-production work. Um so I break it down to you know the creative overhead of what we're gonna do when we talk about the idea. The equipment that I need to bring is a different line item. If we need additional staff on set to take care of audio or to work on props or, you know, any of those different needs that will make the project go more smoothly, the amount of deliverables they want. So it's very line item broken down into different sections that then comes to this total, um, which then, and I'm not great at it, and I need to get better at being a business that holds to some boundaries, but then it allows when something changes in the scope of work that you can say, cool, okay, you want 12 more images. That's gonna change this line item to that amount. Um, versus being like, okay, yeah, that's fine. We'll add 12 more images and it won't change the amount. I that's not gonna be a functioning business model to just allow for that scope of work to creep without adjusting the cost of it too. So I don't really ever like doing the like, no matter what it's gonna cost this amount. Um because as artists we will undercharge. We won't do the overcharging, we will undercharge ourselves.
Announcer:Yeah, I think we're underground.
Jennifer Zmuda:So yeah.
Announcer:Thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please subscribe. Visit Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast.com to learn more about our guest and how you can help support artists, the arts, and this podcast.
