Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
#353: Beth Guerriero (Consultant for Arts Nonprofits) (pt. 1 of 2)
This week on the podcast is part one of our interview with Beth Guerriero. She is an arts consultant who works with regional and national nonprofits across the United States. Prior to starting her own consulting business, she spent nearly two decades working in academia and nonprofits. Beth has held leadership positions in a variety of organizations, including Rowan University where she was the Executive Director of Integrative Arts, and the City University of New York’s Harmony Program where she was the Director of Education.
If you're interested in creating or leading an arts organization, you'll want to hear Beth's approach to understanding each organization she works with and how she helps them to thrive. https://www.bethgconsulting.com/
Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast, Making Art Work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion, and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent, or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts, Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.
Nick Petrella:Hi, Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners. I'm Andy Heise.
Nick Petrella:And I'm Nick Petrella. Beth Guerriero is with us today. She's an arts consultant who works with regional and national nonprofits across the United States. Prior to starting her own consulting business, she spent nearly two decades working in academia and nonprofits. Beth has held leadership positions in a variety of organizations, including Rowan University, where she was the Executive Director of Integrative Arts, and the City University of New York's Harmony Program, where she was the Director of Education. Thanks for coming on the podcast, Beth.
Beth Guerriero:I'm really excited to be here today.
Nick Petrella:What prompted you to leave a career as a violinist and string teacher to start your own consulting firm?
Beth Guerriero:Well, thank you so much for having me. You know, uh technically I would say I'm still teaching a little bit and playing here and there. I just want to say that. But, you know, um just to go back a little bit, uh I really was at City University um doing the work uh with the Harmony program, and then at Rowan University. Um, that role as executive director of integrative arts was um as a professor, it was also overseeing the community music school at the same time. These two areas um were both academic and also working in nonprofit. And I was also the chief fundraiser for the College of Performing Arts. And yet this designing non-degree certificate programs for the College of Performing Arts. Um I was a little tired at the end of the day, I have to say, um just doing all these things. Umdegree certificate programs would be like uh in music education, um, in dance, in theater, um, chief fundraiser for the College of Performing Arts, working with the foundation, um, you know, to cultivate donations and actually corporate sponsorships as well, uh, fundraising for their uh dynamic uh performance series that they had on the stage in the concert hall, um, and then also uh working to direct 2,500 students and 60 faculty in the community music school while also teaching classes at Rowan University, which is an RT research institution. So I did that for a couple of years, um, and I also just kind of got to a point where I thought I'd really like to just kind of launch off and do this work, but do it more expansively. Um, and so that's kind of where my journey uh got to at a certain point. And I thought I I think I can start this consulting firm. So I left Rowan in 2022 and I went to a support center in New York City, which, if you're in the nonprofit sector, you would know that they're an overarching um sort of training ground for the East Coast uh nonprofits. So there's like Third Sector New England and Boston, support center New York City, and I took their interim executive director training. I was the only arts person in the cohort, and it was very competitive. There were about 45 folks who applied and 20 that got in. Um, and that's what got me into the interim work.
Nick Petrella:Gotcha.
Andy Heise:So how did you how did you land all those roles? How were you how were you so fortunate to get all of those different have to wear all those different at Rowan? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Beth Guerriero:In Rowan. Um, you know what? Um my work at CUNY at City University, I had the doctorate in music education, and I came in as a music ed professor. Uh, but my work at CUNY had been in uh the Harmony program, which is an El STMA program, um, and working under the university, but in a nonprofit housed in the research foundation, was again constantly in the place in the academic world at the nonprofit like intersection. So this has kind of been this um theme throughout my my career and my and my work. Like it's it's just a constant place for me.
Nick Petrella:So you had familiarity with a nonprofit space prior to making the leap then. Yeah.
Beth Guerriero:Oh, definitely. Like before that, like for a long time, I had been uh at a community college. I did that for like about six years, where I was directing an orchestra at a community college and teaching lessons in the string area. But then at the same time, I was also leading um a branch of Settlement Music School in Philadelphia. Like, so I had like as an adjunct, like I did that for like a long time. And so um again, like that was a whole thing that happened in my um the the back end of my career, like in in the early you know, 2010 through 2016. Like, and so like it's just I I think there's a thing here, and sometimes my own perspective, universities can sometimes silo themselves too far away, and and that is definitely not the place where um they need to be, especially right now with um let's call it the academic cliff, right? Or the demographic cliff that's happening, and there are so many folks who want to learn. So um, so that's what got me to the consulting firm because once I took the interim executive director training, um, you know, the the what's really interesting right now in the field is it used to be 15 or 20 years ago, executive directors would stay in a role for like a really long time, and now the transition is three years. Like an ED comes in for three years and then they're out the door to the next thing. And that we're seeing that not just with EDs, but staff in general. Um, and so having like a really top-notch problem solver to come in during transitions is like very critical. Um, and so I took that training up, as I said, I was the only arts person, and it was a tough cohort. It was primarily mid to late career people. And um, and then I was I was often doing it, and and I just got going and I'm I'm in you know all these placements all the time, uh sort of helping folks and primarily in the arts sector. Um, and then I'm actually right now in my first one that's a non-arts uh interim ed role, which is very interesting in its own.
Andy Heise:So, how long have you been doing the interim ED uh consulting work?
Beth Guerriero:Yeah, so I'm in my in my fourth year right now of doing it. Um, and there are constantly things flying across my desk because when you jump into them, you're you know, at a minimum, it's gonna be six months, but it's probably closer to a year of transitional work. Um, and you have any number of factors that are coming at you. Um you you you you have some information, no information. There could be a succession plan, there could be nothing that's presented to you. It could be a small organization. I've had an organization that's you know $300,000 in terms of budget. Um, the one I'm in now is closer to two and a half million in terms of budget. Um, and you have uh many reasons why the ED could have left, right? You I had one where the ED passed away uh with no notice. I have one where the executive director um was fired, actually, two where the executive director was fired. I had one where the executive director left with two weeks' notice after 20 years. Um, and with you, you know, so you just kind of dropped in and you're just like, okay, I have to figure out exactly how to help these folks through like the toughest time in their um organizational existence effectively, right? Um and um and sort out like all the issues that are gonna come and then help them kind of stable the ship to go, you know, into the next place where they're gonna get to. And I will never be, it's like dating organizations, I will never be their person, um, but I'm gonna help them get to where they need to go to figure it out.
Andy Heise:Yeah, yeah, and we're gonna talk about some of those different situations that you might find yourself in here a little bit later. Um, but having having worked in higher ed and in nonprofits and sort of both at the same time, I get I understand that higher ed typically is nonprofit as well, but um uh a nonprofit organization versus a higher education institution. What were some what are some of this uh some of the differences on how those institutions approach um their missions in the arts?
Beth Guerriero:Sure. Um so it's that's a great question, I think, because I think about it a lot actually, being in the space um and kind of living in both spaces. Um what I love about nonprofits is often we can move a lot faster.
Andy Heise:Right.
Beth Guerriero:Um, and that is like really cool. Um, and so but sometimes um in higher ed um you have sort of different opportunities and you have more stability. Um and but sometimes not, right? I mean, the current landscape has now gotten really interesting in higher ed too. So um so those are some things to be to be thinking about. Um so uh those would be some core things that I would be really thinking about. Um but in particular, you know, you could say the smaller the nonprofit, the faster you can sometimes go. Um, but that's not always, you know, not always the case in terms of thinking about the sizes, right? So um I have a number of other clients on my roster. I have eight clients right now. And because I have the interim thing, that's a huge part of my work. And then I have some fundraising clients, and then I have six or so EDs that I mentor. And those EDs, they call me for once or twice a month meetings and they kind of troubleshoot through problems. Um, and they those clients range um from this $30,000 organizations to $5 million organizations. And um, so typically, like we'll talk through problems, they'll send me an agenda and it's an hour or two a month, and things like that. And um, so I hear about all the different things that they're sort of dealing with and try. It could be any area within the sector, it could be finance or human resources or marketing. And so it's it's really interesting, but so many of the themes are similar to the things that folks in higher ed are battling. Like, I can't get this paperwork through my finance department, or the marketing folks will put out the things that need to happen, or I don't have to be. Right, right, right, right, right. So nobody understands, you know, like that this performance needs to happen in this way, and I can't talk to the so-and-so, you know, folks in you know, the grants department or something, you know, like so it's it's so much of the stuff is is similar, um, but but ultimately I would say that it it comes down to the speed at which we can approach things. So if you can be nimble and um efficient, that's you know, that's the core of it. Can the universities be nimble and efficient? I don't know. That's the goal.
Nick Petrella:So when you're in these interim executive director positions, are you just are you expected to just keep things status quo, keep things afloat, or can you can you make substantive changes?
Beth Guerriero:Yeah. No, um, so sorry, you'll get to to know me a little. Um yeah, so so the ideal is managing the day-to-day and then really preparing the organization for what comes next. And um, you know, from you know day negative 10 in starting the role, like I'm starting to like really quickly assess what is going on with the organization. Um, and I really need to get a fast read on what the needs are and um and what I can really do in terms of making change happen. Um, and so I would say that interim EDs, really great ones, are you know, transition specialist specialists and change specialists. Um however, there are some really core things to you know be thinking about here. So if you've ever read the work of William uh Bridges, there's um a book he wrote called Transitions that is used a lot. And we talk about sort of the the ending, the endings, the neutral zone, and the sort of the next steps that happen. And um oftentimes in organizations or just like in general, people like have an end and then they just start something new. But the neutral zone is actually really, really critical. Um, and this is kind of where the place of the interim is. And the neutral zone is also really like difficult for a lot of people. Like if you end a job, for example, like as a person, like you just end your job, like you might take six months and explore like what's gonna come next. And like that's actually a really healthy model. Like, or if you have a significant loss in your life or something happens, like exploring these times of transition are really, really important. Well, it's the same thing with organizations, and people go through things really differently in transitions, right? So, like if you're in an organization with 10 people working in like a you know, million-dollar nonprofit, like budget million dollars, like different people day to day will react differently to the changes that are happening in an organization and it models very similar similarly to the stages of grief. So, like it's not linear, also in terms of how people are um understanding how that works. So, like one day somebody might come in and be grieving that we've made a change to something that they're used to in their structure for 10 years, working in like you know, this thing, and another day somebody might be sad and somebody might be angry at something. And so part of the transition work that I do is trying to be accommodating and helpful, but also trying to make these changes happen bit by bit. And you're managing that as an interim ED, so you're also focusing on working with the boards and then working with the staff and working with the greater stakeholders within the organization. So it's it's a really challenging puzzle. Now I'm gonna make it more challenging for a second because in a lot of arts organizations, you have an executive director structure and you have a staff and you have a board. But in some organizations in the performing arts, you have a different structure, which is that you're gonna have an interim ED and then you're gonna have an artistic director or a music director, and that's where it gets really screwy. Pardon my language, I don't know about language on your podcast, but like really screwy because then if you think about an interim uh executive director or an executive director as being the person who fundraises and brings in the money and is the business person, and then you have the artistic director is the person spending the money and being making the artistic decisions, and then if you start to think about like what happens as an interim if you're in for nine months or something like that making the changes, and you have an artistic director who's been in there for 30 years, and then if you add on a case of like some serious founderitis, what could possibly go wrong?
Andy Heise:Yeah, exactly.
Beth Guerriero:And so so I can tell you um with assuredness, and I've had about a couple cases of this kind of a situation, um, and that has been very interesting.
Andy Heise:Yeah.
Beth Guerriero:Um, and so you you kind of do the best that you can. What I'm building up to is a pretty significant um body of writing about that situation because it's not really been studied, I think, enough. And I think it can lead to like sort of the overall decline of some arts organizations where you have this dual structured model and people aren't really understanding enough of what can happen because of this transitional thing that's that's going on, the founders and um EDs and ADs, and how this is working and the tension that's inherent between you know the EDs and the ADs and how that's working, because ultimately, as I've been seeing it, the AD, the board is sort of beholden to the ADs in other structures.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, yeah. You'd have to have a heightened sense of interpersonal skills, I would imagine. Because it's coming at your 360.
Andy Heise:Yeah. Um and it also strikes me that, you know, to your point about the the neutral space or the neutral zone. I call it the well, I say the neutral zone because football's about to start. But the neutral time you said between the end and uh new stuff. Uh an interim ED and an existing A D, that would that would be particularly contentious, I could imagine. I mean, the AD wants to keep moving forward and has a big big vision for where they want to go, and then your interim ed saying, wait a second, we have to create this structure or whatever it is we need to do to bring on a new.
Beth Guerriero:Yeah, I can I can certainly certainly see how that could be well and and a lot of times, like so, as an example, like as an interim ED, like I've walked into situations where I'm coming into that, and then on top of that, you know, the organization is in a significant deficit. Yeah, right. And so then it's like, okay, so then I'm working with a board chair who says fix the deficit, development committee who says, okay, and we're gonna do it by you know tapping our donors more, which is not necessarily the way, right? It's kind of a big, you know, gigantic pie chart of like a lot of different factors, right? And then an AD who says, and this is the way we've always done things, and that's the way we have to continue to always do things. So, you know, how do you how do you solve that you know situation? Um, and so um, and and that sort of is what it is. And then there's like the the other parts of this, like then are we gonna do a search? Are we gonna have a you know for the next ED? How is that gonna work? Are we gonna have a merger process? Because, you know, how big is our deficit? What can we do? You know, what are the next healthy steps for this organization? So there's there's a whole lot of things that go on through the process. And the process is quite interesting because you come in and it's like a lot of a flurry of information, and then you have sort of a stabilization period, and then you have whatever has happened towards the end of the you know, months or year, and you're sort of in a lifting at the end of where you're you know tossing it over to another person or you're going into the these next steps of the you know of the transitional process that's like the new beginning phase. Sure, you know, and and from me, they're gonna get a um you know eight to ten page report of you know, here are short-term, middle-term, and long-term solutions and ideas and and things like that that you are gonna take with you in interim where so how do you step into that interim role and quickly earn the trust of all the stakeholders, the people you serve, the board, the existing staff, you know, there's just the list goes on. Yeah, it's it's really intense. Like if you think about in a normal job, 100 days, it's compacted to 30 days. I mean, it has to be like I am just meeting everyone as as quickly as possible on the staff and having these really intense, you know, conversations. I have what I call the two notebook system. Like this is just me, like my how I personally work, you know. And um, you know, I'm just like taking notes and listening like crazy and asking a ton of questions. And like I myself have a um list of all the organizational documents for onboarding. I mean, it's extensive and exhaustive list, and I'm reading like crazy, and I'm just trying to gather as much information as possible. Um, I'll tell you a story. One organization I worked with, um, there was uh an infamous story. I'm gonna call it, I use some air quotes here because I know it's a podcast, um, where I heard no less than six versions of the same story about the previous executive director told, you know, it was like water cooler gossip, you know, it was always open a thing, you know, and so around the story, and and so-and-so was the so-and-so who moved away with two weeks of notice, right? And it was a bad, it was a bad story. And so, like I heard it from the this person, I heard it from this board member, I heard it from the administrative assistant, I heard it from, you know, and at the end of the day, my two notebook system was absolutely filled with different variations of the same story, you know, in terms of finding out the the real truth at the the core of the, you know, the truth of the story. And so, you know, that that was it just became a real um enlightening moment for me. Um, and this is early in my interim time, to understand that, like, you know, sometimes you'll never really find the full truth of what's going on in an organization, but you'll hear every single possible perspective in the first 30 days.
Nick Petrella:Yeah. Um and that's why it's so important just not to jump on the bandwagon of whatever you're hearing, because it's it's their perception and how many variances there are.
Beth Guerriero:Yeah, absolutely. And so um, so it just I kind of try to go in with like a completely open mind and listening like crazy, and just like tell me everything, and like and I'll just hear it, and like, you know, and and often like that, you know, interim work is um supposed to be three to four days a week, but often that first lift is like I'm in it for hours and hours just gathering, and then it as I said, it goes into stabilization after that, yeah. You know, trying to stabilize folks as much as possible.
Andy Heise:I suppose your interim status is that do you find that helpful or hindering when it comes to getting people to open up and tell you things? The temporariness of goods.
Beth Guerriero:Yes, yes, yes. I mean, being able to say I'm not your person is wonderful. Right. I mean, to me, and I enjoy it because like I like to learn, like I'm a lifelong learner, and um it's like I I just really love meeting new organizations and like learning about the world. And so um, and I really stress with them like this is going to be a confidential conversation, right? You know, and you can tell me what you need to tell me. And I feel like in organizations knowing folks, um the sometimes it's you know, it's the intern that has things that they've been noticing, and they're too afraid to say something to the ED or to the director or the vice president, but they will tell me I've noticed blah blah blah blah blah blah. And that's a significant change for that organization that I can take to the board. Um, and so that is is a really cool thing.
Andy Heise:Yeah, yeah. Real quick, what's the two notebook system? You mentioned what the first one was for, is taking notes. What's the second notebook?
Beth Guerriero:Yeah, it's just a goofy system I use where I write everything down in one notebook and then really important suggestions that people say in another notebook.
Andy Heise:Okay, gotcha. Gotcha. So the one is the one is to show people that you're listening and like not I mean, not it's not all it's not all um performative, right? But we're taking notes, but then the important things make it into the second notebook.
Beth Guerriero:It's really like the second notebook is like the um like the really key insights of like so-and-so said we have to do this thing. I gotcha. And like I'm hearing this like over and over as a theme. And so, like, this is something we need to pursue for later. Gotcha. Um, you know, and those are the things that make it into the final report often, but if there are things that like, you know, it's the third day, and like six months from now I need to remember this thing is coming up.
Nick Petrella:Right, sure, right. So I bet with all the nonprofits you've worked with, you probably have a fairly comprehensive understanding of the variances and the subtleties. And so what I'm wondering is are there common challenges that nonprofits face, arts nonprofits specifically, and how are the successful organizations dealing with them?
Beth Guerriero:Sure, sure. Um, so I would say that a couple of themes really strike me coming into organizations and working with different orgs. So the first would be thinking about boards and board management at that sort of level and kind of approaching what that looks like. Uh and so thinking through like, are we um growing a board? Um, do we have active board and engaged board members, especially now with the political landscape where it is? Um, connected board members. Are our board members our greatest cheerleaders and advocates for the organization? Um, you know, um some organizations I'm working with have boards with like four board members and some have boards with 20 board members. You could have 20 board members who like don't care about an organization, or like three of them that care and 17 that just don't really do anything. Um, or you could have four board members who are just like really super engaged and show up for everything and do all the stuff. And so um, so the advice I try to give is that um finding the absolute like right board members is is critical to the sustainability and future of organizations. Um and then within that, like looking for you know absolute diversity across boards, um, like diversity of people, diversity of interests, diversity of skill sets, diversity of their uh professional backgrounds, diversity of income, like everything that they can do um across boards. So I think that that is something because you know, at the end of the day, often people forget that boards are also the fiscal responsibility for the organization.
Andy Heise:They're on the hook, yeah.
Beth Guerriero:Yeah, yeah. And so, like a really good example of that is if you follow the University Arts situation here in Philly. Like, I know I'm coming from Newark today, but like I live very close to Philadelphia, and um, it's kind of disappeared off the radar right now. People are not talking about it. But my last interim was in Center City, Philadelphia on Walnut Street, and I would walk past the University of the Arts every day, past those sad buildings that were closed. They have to do that.
Andy Heise:And um Yeah, yeah.
Beth Guerriero:And they sold that property to you know developers now, and it's it's terrible, it's absolutely awful. Um, but you know, at the end of the day, those board members um were should have been, were, are fiscally responsible for what happened with the University of the Arts. And so that should be um at the collegiate level, the academic level, and at the nonprofit level, a warning that if we're choosing board members, that those board members are the responsible parties for what is happening, you know, in organizations.
Andy Heise:Yeah.
Beth Guerriero:So the uh the second thing I would say um in terms of challenges would be uh funding. And um, and I give this talk a lot at conferences. I talk about diversification of funding um and fundraising. And um, you know, in that context, um it would be thinking about if you had a uh pie, you know, like um finding, you know, really diversified revenue in terms of donors, foundations, grants, um, corporate sponsorships, so that if any one piece of the puzzle dropped out completely, um, that you would have adequate resources in other parts of that puzzle. One organization I'm working with currently is receiving 85% of their funds from government grants. This is an enormous issue. Um, it's an enormous issue because right now those grants are not going to come back. And so um, what we know from Support Center actually is that from February 2020 onwards, there's an estimate that 15% of nonprofits are going to close in six months. So from last February to now, like that's about now, right? And so um so this is really, really problematic. So my recommendation would be thinking about how we can best diversify fundraising as much as possible. Um, however, there's a second issue here, which is the idea that donors are going to be tapped out or already getting very, very tapped out, individual private donors. Um, and then the third thing is just the general struggle for resources in general. Um, and that is beyond fundraising or finding good board members, but things like finding enough qualified people to work in organizations, right? Finding enough support in, you know, like areas like um, you know, finance and marketing and other people who just want to do this work. Um, this is well beyond the arts space, but it's just kind of sector-wide in the nonprofit sector. Um, and keeping um people in jobs that are like, you know, non-toxic and healthy and equitable and you know, and things like that. And so each of these challenges um I think are are um critical in keeping the nonprofit arts space really, really thriving.
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