Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work
#363: Larry Heyman (Scenic Designer) (pt. 1 of 2)
This week on the podcast is part one of our interview with Larry Heyman. He’s an internationally recognized and award-winning freelance scenic designer based in Cleveland, Ohio. Larry has over 30 years of experience in set design, as well as properties design, fabrication and supervision, across theatre, film, opera, television, commercial projects and higher education.
Companies he’s worked with include: The Goodman Theatre, The Huntington Theatre, Prague Shakespeare Company, The Cleveland Playhouse, Paramount Pictures, Twentieth Century Fox, and MTV.
Stream the episode to hear how Larry incorporate in-depth research and problem solving to give his clients what they want. https://www.historyofchairs.com/
Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast, Making Art Work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion, and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own, and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent, or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts, Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.
Andy Heise:Hi Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners. I'm Andy Heise.
Nick Petrella:And I'm Nick Petrella. Larry Heyman is with us today. He's an internationally recognized and award-winning freelance scenic designer based in Cleveland, Ohio. Larry has over 30 years of experience in set design, as well as properties design, fabrication, and supervision across theater, film, opera, television, commercial projects, and higher education. Companies he's worked with include the Goodman Theater, the Huntington Theater, Prague Shakespeare Company, the Cleveland Playhouse, Paramount Pictures, Twentieth Century Fox, and MTV. Larry has many more accolades than we could mention in the intro, so we'll have his website in the show notes so you can read more about him and see photos of his captivating designs. Thanks for coming on the podcast, Larry. Thanks for having me. Before we begin, I wanted to say that I really enjoyed the presentation you gave at Art Without Limits a few weeks ago. And if if that link is up before this airs, I'll make sure we put it in the show notes. Awesome. So after reading your bio, it seems you wanted to get into set design at an early age. What first attracted you to design and what keeps you interested today?
Larry Heyman:I guess the very first thing, I mean, high school, you know, I was a theater kid in high school, and and it just fascinated me. And it fascinat fascinated me as I learned more and more the number of divisions, the number of jobs, the number of vocations that were available creating, you know, theater, but also just entertainment arts. I mean, I was lucky. I went to a school, I went to Maine East High School in Park Ridge, Illinois. I'll give it a shout out. And when I was there, we had a TV station, we had a we had a radio station, and we had a full theater program. So there were just tons of opportunities. And I realized that it was a place I liked to be. And I I liked being behind the behind the scenes, behind the camera, but also creating something that was tangible. So really early age.
Nick Petrella:Yeah. And we're gonna unpack that as we go on. We have questions about your different work experiences.
Andy Heise:Well, yeah, speaking of that, you've worked in lots of different areas of design. How do you how do you decide which projects to take on, you know, and the roles that you play within that? And um, you know, balancing sort of that artistic interest with, you know, practical considerations like, okay, I need to pay my rent and you know make my own. Oh, yeah.
Larry Heyman:I mean, income, income and time and what the demand is, um, they all play into it. Um, it's it's evolved as I've as I've gotten older. I mean, I used to be, you know, I used to be the classic sort of hungry artist where anytime anybody called me and said, Hey, you want to do something, I said yeah, before they could even tell me what it was. And now, um, you know, after a few episodes of sitting overnight on a beach waiting for a film crew to show up or stuff like that, um, I have learned to ask questions about where I'm going to be and what exactly the expectations are. But the other thing that that plays heavily into it is um I have discovered, and this comes just with experience, that there are a couple of things that I really love. I really love the freedom that opera gives you because I mean, a cool rule of thumb with opera is, you know, it's a hundred percent about the voice and the drama and very little about where it takes place. So it gives, it gives the designer an opportunity to really kind of blow up the world and put it back together again. So I like that. Um, but I've also begun looking at, you know, I have as I'm as I'm progressing and sort of getting um, you know, to be a to a mid to late career career designer, one of the things that I look at is what do I want to do? And I have a short list. I mean, I've never designed my own production of a Christmas Carol. I'd like to do that at some point. I have never designed, I have worked on multiple productions of um Our Town by Thornton Wilder, but I've never actually designed it. And then the thing that's come up recently that's just sort of kind of exploded in my brain a little bit, is the idea of producing theater in what I refer to as liminal space, that is the sort of otherworldly. I mean, if if you watch um some of the streaming television, a lot of it takes place in sort of these otherworldly, they exist in reality, but they're kind of outside of reality type spaces. So the idea of setting Shakespeare in warehouse spaces without adding too much to the show. Like, I'm not looking to change anything. I'm just saying that scenery can simply be kind of an emotional world in which the show takes place. So I'm exploring that more and more.
Nick Petrella:So why our town and why a Christmas Carol?
Larry Heyman:Um I've just So Our Town, um, I've always loved the play, and I've always imagined it as kind of the Norman Rockwell, Thomas Hart Benton, Grant Wood of stage, and I've seen it produced using um the number of productions I've seen where when when uh um the two characters are are sort of George and Emily are sort of standing at their windows and looking out at the sky. The number of productions that I've seen where the two actors come out and set up A-frame ladders and climb up them, and it's like, oh my god, please, let's figure out another way to get them into a window without putting a ladder on the stage. I've just seen some things done where it's like as a as kind of a smug uh temperamental designer, and I say that, you know, jokingly, but um I kind of look at things and think, I could probably figure out a way to do that differently. And then a Christmas carol, it's just such an iconic thing. It's produced at virtually in every major city in the United States, there's a theater producing a Christmas carol between Thanksgiving and New Year's. I mean, it's a it's a staple, it's it's a money maker for theaters. Um, great theaters like The Goodman in Chicago have figured out ways to incorporate, you know, local talent, returning talent. I know that in Chicago at one point they had the mayor walk on in a role, they've had Chicago Bears walk on in a roll, and it's just sort of a fun way to kind of incorporate it. But it's also a really cool period. And it's it's a really cool, it's a ghost story. And I don't think we think of that very often. It's just this great Charles Dickens ghost story. And so I have these kind of emotionally driven visuals of of dark stages with mist and fog and lots of stuff, and it just seems like a fun thing to put your signature on.
Andy Heise:Sounds great. I'd go see that. Yeah. I love what you said about opera, you know. Um, as a musician, anytime I get involved with a with a stage production, I'm usually in the pit orchestra, so I never get to see all the great work from designers like you. Um but uh what you said about opera is interesting, and I never thought about that. You know, the focus is so much on the story and the drama and the singing and the music that it does sort of provide, you know, it relies on perhaps the set design to help establish a place in time.
Larry Heyman:Yeah, and and frequently, you know, with opera, you've got I mean, look at a production of say the magic flute, where you've got all these supernumeraries and all these additional voices that can either sing from off stage or they can come on stage. And so my role is to try and figure out a way to get all these people on and off stage in a believable way. But I mean, it reminds me there's there are there are visuals on my uh website of a production of Lucia di Lamor, um and and it's um it's just a I I think it's a great example. It's it's based on Oh no, I'm blanking. I think it's the writings of Sir Walter Scott about the birth of Scotland. But it was really funny because I was working on a production with a fantastic director who I've worked with before, and she came into the very first meeting and she said, the last thing I want to see on this stage is a set that looks like the Game of Thrones. And the unfortunate reality of this particular play is that's when it takes place. It takes place in sort of the Scottish Highlands during the Middle Ages. And so I had to go, I actually threw away my research after the first meeting and went away and started just kind of looking for stuff. And I discovered purely by accident, and this has become kind of a joke in my portfolio if you talk to my friends, but I discovered kind of by accident that um hinges, standing stone monoliths, are sort of common throughout the Scottish countryside. And a lot of the times there's strictly because farmers would have been plowing, they would have discovered a large stone underground, and rather than dragging it away, they would simply stand it up in their field so they could plow around it. So you see these henges, not just Stonehenge, you know, but also the Avenberry Henge and lots of different places. And so I thought, well, this is kind of an interesting marker, and it's also an interesting monolith that sort of describes the overwhelming power of the land. And so I came back to the first meeting and I said, You said you didn't want it to look like uh uh Game of Thrones. So what if we just set it outside on a Scottish moor and there are hinges surrounding the stage? And the director kind of looked at me like I was, you know, like I was proposing putting hinges on the stage. And I showed her some research. I pulled some pictures up and I said, we put a gigantic stormy sky behind them and we give you hinges. And she said, How do we know when we're inside? And I said, There will be furniture on the stage. And she sort of paused for a minute and she was like, it's like you're you don't have a rule. They don't say we must be in a throne room. Yeah. And um she sort of she she embraced it, and and her comment after the show was over was you get into some really weird places in your head, but I kind of like it.
Nick Petrella:So you know, well you're kind of like a magician guiding where people look in a way.
Larry Heyman:Right. Exactly. I mean it's design is very much. I I say this in classes with young designers, design is very much a noun and a verb, and it's the closest you're ever going to come to actually world building, you know, where you create a place that exists solely for the time that the play takes place.
Andy Heise:Yeah. That's fascinating. It's powerful. You mentioned the hinges. I'm imagining the scene from uh spinal tap.
Larry Heyman:And that was a major, major comment in the media thing. They were like, and we're sure this is in inches and feet and not inches, right? There was that. There were jokes about hinges rather than engines. I got them all, and I got pictures from all over the world of friends of mine standing in front of things like, look at where I am, and it's like, okay, you know.
Nick Petrella:So our listeners come from a variety of arts genres and and beyond. So could you walk us through the design process when you are first engaged by a company?
Larry Heyman:Um, sure. Yeah, the the first question, and it sounds um it sounds like a like an obvious and sort of implied question, but it really does, it is important. You know, if it's a contemporary play, there's usually only one text floating around. But if you're doing something from the classical works or if you're doing opera, you need to know what production they're doing. You need to know who the adaptation who wrote the adaptation, you know, what the cuts are, if there are any cuts. So the first question is can you get me a copy of whatever text you're working from? And on more than one occasion, I've worked on a show where I've started designing based on one thing, and then at one thing, and then I get a note from the production manager, and they're like, whoops, we sent you the wrong cut. Here's the right cut. And it's like, oh, so there is no first act. Okay, good, good to know, you know. Um, so I get a copy of the script, and um, in general, um I have a I'm very I'm a little I'm a little quirky, a little uh superstitious as a designer, but I have a chair and a and a room that I like to sit in when I'm reading. And I go and I sit in my comfy chair in this warm room with a with a nice light on, and I try to read whatever it is straight through without stopping. I want to read it as though I'm an audience member watching it. Just to get a sense of the pacing and how it's gonna work. That's the first read. And it's also there are no pens and pencils, there are no notepads. I might have a have a cup of coffee or an occult beverage or whatever, but I read it through. That's the first read. The second read, I read it more deliberately, maybe maybe scene by scene or act by act, and I'm possibly dog-earing pages and folding things over for things that are notable. The third read, I go through it and I make notes in the margin where I point out, you know, she comes into the room and she's, you know, got a pot of chili or whatever, you know, just stuff that I'm noting, or she goes to the, you know, like they they describe in the text of the play that somebody's preparing a meal. The one thing I don't look at is I don't look at the italics and I don't look at the stage directions. And here's why. Because in most publishers' versions of plays, the stage directions are whatever happened during the original production. They're stage managers' notes. They're not necessarily um playwright's notes. I see, I see. So that's three reads, and then the fourth read, I actually sit and read it with a notepad where I go through and I write what the needs are. I do sort of a scene breakdown. What do we need? What do we need in this scene? Who's sitting, who's lying, who comes in, who goes out, where do they come from? How do they get out of the room? You know, are there windows, are there doors, that sort of thing. And then and then the fifth read is usually late. Um, and that's after I've made some sketches and I've made some notes and I've talked to the director. Um, because that's the other really important thing is depending on who your director is and how experienced the director is. I worked with a I work with a veteran um opera director whose name is David Herendine, and um he is sort of famous for oh, we don't need that. They're never gonna sit down at a table. We don't need that. So you want to go through and and do that, and then and then and that's the beginning of the design process, and then we slowly begin to evolve and go into design meetings where we're talking with other people.
Nick Petrella:So I just have a couple questions. Well, and well, one's a statement. You're you're kind of like a dramaturge, if you think about it. You're doing research on various times and contexts, and it seems like it's always in the forefront of the right. 100% of your thinking. And then the question is do you uh how long does it take for you to do those reads on average, and do you account for that when you are coming up with a fee schedule?
Larry Heyman:No. I mean, I it the that's it's one of those things where it's like reading the play, drafting the play, um, and going to meetings, though, and and being there for the rehearsal, the tech rehearsal process. That's that's I mean, that's part of the fee. Um the the thing I do account for is um some theater companies want one, two, or three different models, scale models. So if I've got my fee comes with one model, and if you want a dozen, you know, nobody asks for a dozen, but if you want a model for the shop, a model for the director, and a model to put in the lobby of the theater, each one is going to cost a fee. Um so that's the first thing. And then I sort of jump past something because when when I'm making notes, one of the other things that I sort of do, and and I'm I'm keying off of what you just asked, Nick, is um who were the major contemporary artists, musicians, and literary figures during the period? Because a lot of the times that is going to move my visual imagination to forward. Let me just really fast one quick example. There's a there's a super produced um opera that amazingly not many, very many people have heard of. It's actually one of the most produced, if not the most produced, English language operas out there. Uh it it surpasses Porky and Bess, which surprised me. And it's called Susanna. And it's written by Carlisle Floyd, and it is basically it's a it's an it was written in the 20th century, and it's an allegory based on the biblical story of Susanna and the elders. But Carlyle Floyd set it in Appalachia in the early part of the 20th century. And when I started searching, I was looking for sort of painters of that region, that land. And, you know, I was looking at Grandma Moses and a few other of the American primitivists, and then I it wasn't really stumbling. I mean, I knew he exists, but I found the work of Thomas Hart Benton, and I realized that he almost like poetically illustrated the world of this play. And so he became one of the driving forces visually for me. So I have a friend who's a costume designer whom I love and I work with frequently. And one of the things that she always jokes around with when I text her before we go to the first design meeting, and I say, What have you got? Her response is, I'm waiting to see who your artists are, and then I'm gonna make a decision. Because I try and come into the meeting with a few artists who have sort of given me. Kind of a gut reaction. Yeah, that's that's that's that seems prudent. Okay. It's a process, and you just have to find people who are comfortable with it.
Nick Petrella:Trevor Burrus And then not to belabor the point, but I'm assuming that in your overall fee, you do account for the time that you're going to be reading five times. Okay. For young people who may want to be doing what you're doing.
unknown:Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Larry Heyman:And honestly, I mean I know we're going to talk about this a little bit. I I mean I feel like we're probably going to talk a little bit about my union affiliation, but a lot of the time my fee is set by the union. And there's a minimum. And then if I want to add to that and negotiate and see, but the most of the time I work for for at or close to the minimum.
Nick Petrella:Do you want to Andy, do you have a question that's I do?
Andy Heise:That's that's our next question, actually.
Nick Petrella:Perfect. Yeah, let's do it.
Andy Heise:So I see that you are a member of IATSI. I that's for for the listeners that aren't familiar, that's IATS E. And Larry, you can tell us what that stands for in a second.
Larry Heyman:It's the International Allowance of Stage or Theatrical and Stage Employees, and there are several addendums. First of all, I my local is USA United Scenic Artists, local 829. But I did start out as a regular IA member, and I was actually a member of IATSC Studio Mechanics and Motion Picture Machinery Operators. Those are the folks who make make films. And it's basically it's the union that covers entertainment employees. And there are front-of-house versions, there are there are there's an IA for box office employees, there's an IA for stage managers, so it just depends. But yes. And what role does it play? Well, the first thing it does is, you know, for lack of a better term, it kind of endorses me as somebody who isn't, who isn't like, you know, just fly by night, right? Hope it, you know, re-regurgitating other people's designs and hoping nobody notices, that sort of thing. So it endorses me. It also makes it with the USA 829 scenic artists and scenic designers and lighting designers and costume designers, is it's kind of a stamp of approval so that our work can be built by union shops. So a lot of the times a union shop, an IA union shop, won't accept or or will you know have caveats when a non-union designer is working. So that's the first thing. And then it depends on the role. For instance, with my union, um one of the things that it guarantees is it guarantees a minimum. And then, Nick, one of the other things that it does is it makes it so that when I buy all the supplies to build the model, I can send the invoice for the supplies to the theater company, and the theater company will reimburse me for art supplies. Um, it also guarantees things like travel expenses and accommodations. Um, I don't, I'm not required to work as a local, so if I go and work in Milwaukee or someplace adjacent, um, they will house me and frequently offer me some sort of meal allowance or some sort of accommodation that covers it. It frequently doesn't cover the whole thing, but that's that's the benefit of also having an LLC where I can I just save my, you know, everything's a business expense when I'm on the road. Um but the but in another place, and this and this helps with sort of entry-level employees and people who are sort of just getting started. Another place that it helped me is in the film industry where everything is about profits and losses, um, it guaranteed a minimum working day for me. So if I was called into work, I couldn't be asked to work for less than eight hours. It's an eight hour a guaranteed eight-hour minimum. So I get paid eight hours as soon as I start. Um, and that's to prevent. This actually happened. This is a story that came up and was a real thing. Um I worked on a I was a union hire on a non-union film. I was brought in at 4 a.m. on the day of the shoot. I was a set dresser. I was told that I would be brought in from 4 a.m. until 8 a.m., that I would be dismissed at 8 a.m. and that I would be asked to come back in at 4 p.m. and work from 4 p.m. to 8 p.m. And that that would be my quote unquote eight-hour day. And as I said, I was dealing with a non-union boss, but in films like this, the producers always know the clauses. And I was in a I was in a state where union union hire was required if you wanted to shoot in the state. And so I was brought, I went into the office and I brought the the person who was running my department in with me, and I explained to the line producer, um, could you could you explain to him what an eight-hour minimum is? And the line producer looked up and was sort of sheepish about it because he knew he was trying to skate by and that I picked up on it. And he said, an eight-hour minimum means that as soon as you start him, he gets paid for eight hours. And anything beyond eight hours, from eight to ten, is time and a half, or eight to, I think it was eight to ten, and then after ten, it's double time, or maybe it was eight to twelve, I don't remember. But um the non-union employee looked at the boss and was like, I've never heard of that. And I wanted to shrug and sort of say to him, You're in a state, you you're from a state that has prided itself on doing non-union films, and here's where it pays off. Because if you're gonna bring me in from 4 a.m. until 8 p.m., I'm going to get paid for the for the 20 hours that I'm there or whatever, you know. Yeah, yeah. So um that's where it helps. It also helps with breaks. Um, it helps with things like working in hot sunshine, working outdoors. If they're gonna put you on a beach during a during a beach movie, you know, you have to have sunscreen, you have to have cold water, you have to have a certain number of hours of shelter time, and you have to and after a certain period of time you get paid hazard pay. So it's guarantees like that and and just general protections of the worker. And you know, it's really unfortunate, but is it but it is the sad reality that a producer is going to try and maximize their profit. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
Andy Heise:Yeah. When did you join um your local union?
Larry Heyman:Um, so local, so 829 I joined fairly recently because I wasn't working um as a freelance designer. I was always prior prior to moving into freelance, which is about three years ago, I was working affiliated with universities or with programs.
Andy Heise:Gotcha. So um I didn't really employ you, you're employed by that.
Larry Heyman:So Yeah, it didn't really, it didn't really matter. And I joined it um because um right around um COVID, um, my union had sort of a drive because a lot of people were leaving the industry. Right. And so when I reached out, and and this this is possibly the sweetest phone conversation I've ever had, I had sent my resume to the to the local, and and the the business agent got on the phone and said, and and I I have to say, I was in my mid-50s when this happened, and he said, Well, you're a mid-career designer, it shouldn't be any problem for you to get in. And I thought, oh, you're adorable if you think this is the middle of my career. But um, but they they I I got sort of a soft landing where they waived several of the fees and I got in. And and it was a it was a boat, and a lot of my friends are in the union, and so it was good. But I have been a member of IATS E in some format or another since 1995, which was the first film I worked on.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Nick Petrella:You know, we had another guest, uh Bobby Sennaria, he's a Latin percussionist, drumshead artist, and he was he was telling me that when he did a cameo appearance on Marvelous Mrs. Mazel, that uh they wanted to pay him you know whatever rate they were gonna pay him. But then he said, I'm a member of SAG, and I didn't know this. So he's a member of the screen actors field because he had done two commercials or something. So they had to pay him a higher scale that they hadn't they hadn't prepared.
Larry Heyman:Yeah, I mean, and the and that's the thing is, you know, it it it dictates a lot of things, and if people don't know, um, it makes a big difference because the number of I mean, I I worked in a in a state that prided itself on being sort of right to work and hiring everybody, and I mean I hate to say it, but when big movies came to the state, they frequently hired employees from out of state. They hired people from Georgia and from Louisiana because and Texas, because these were the people who were skilled employees and were union members. And um, and it was very, very kind of disappointing, but also a little funny that I that I I saw non-union members on Facebook sort of going on about, oh, they're paying me this much and blah, blah, blah. And yes, I'm sleeping in my car and eating granola bars for breakfast, but I'm working on movies. And I'm like, you know, if you were in a union, they'd be required to feed you three hot meals a day, right? Like granola bars aren't aren't a meal. They're and sleeping in your car is like illegal in most places. So um yeah, I I had a really hard time with that, but they were but they were getting paid. Yeah. And I'm using air quotes now for money.
Andy Heise:So and I, you know, just a little bit more about this. I think it is, I mean, because I think it is important for people that are thinking about entering the industry to understand the union side of side of things, and it's something I'm not very familiar with either. So uh I'm asking you, uh I the the broader national Ayahtzee organization, do you have to apply and get accepted to join that union? Or if you work in the industry, you can just join? How's that work?
Larry Heyman:It depends. Um usually if you're brought in as a crew member or a team member on a union project, if you work for, I believe, I I don't remember the the exact amount, but I think it's 30 days, um, you basically have to be offered the right to join. Um you can apply for a local, you can go to a local. You can also go to a local and work as an apprentice and sort of move in. Work your way in. Okay. Work your way in. Um it varies from city to city. Obviously, the three major cities in the United States, New York, Chicago, and and and Los Angeles, it's a little bit tougher to get into.
Speaker 4:Sure.
Larry Heyman:But um, like I worked in a shop that it and it happened right after I left. But I worked in a shop in Chicago that voted to unionize, they voted to organize, and it's to the union's benefit to have a major production shop in their membership.
Speaker 4:Sure.
Larry Heyman:Um, because they get you know dues and and and work percentage and things like that, but they also offer protections. Sure. And um it took it took several tries. They had a they had an organized labor organizer come out, pass out vote cards, and employees voted, and it took like three or four passes before they they voted to to organize.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Larry Heyman:And it was right as I was leaving town, or I would have gotten into like the second largest stage union in the country. But it's it's definitely a benefit. It's definitely, I mean, I know there are people who are in it that don't like it, and I know there are people who have thought about joining and have reasons not to, and I know there are people who sort of look at me sideways a little bit when I talk about it being kind of a brotherhood. But yeah, I mean, I've had a couple of situations on movies where one person will look at me and say, How long have you been out here? How long has it been since you had a break or whatever? And that happened on a film where one of the drivers, a teamster, looked at me and said, I dropped you off at eight o'clock this morning. Have you stopped? And I said, No, I no, I haven't been I haven't been broken, I haven't been given a break. And he laughed and he went, If you don't break, if you don't get a break, you take a break. And and I, you know, it's just that sort of thing.
Andy Heise:So and can you talk a little bit about the fee structures and the or the dues, that sort of thing associated with with that?
Larry Heyman:Um so you're you when you don't have to be specific.
Andy Heise:I'm just one of the things that you're doing.
Larry Heyman:No, um it's a it's a quarterly dues. It's a fo from my in my opinion, it's a very reasonable quarterly dues. I mean it's it's not thousands, it's not even hundreds of dollars.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Larry Heyman:And the only thing that you're basically party to or or or a signatory to is when you get a job at a union shop, they have to pay a portion, I think it's three percent of your salary to the to the to the union.
Speaker 4:Gotcha.
Larry Heyman:Um and that goes into a fund. Yeah. Um and it varies from city to city. In I know in major cities the studio mechanics dues is a little bit higher, and in some of the smaller areas, some of the smaller locals, it's less. I also know that certain locals, like the New England local, which is 481, that was my first local, that covers the five states of New England. So on one hand, it's super positive because you can work anywhere in that region, and on the other hand, it means that you're a local in that region, which means you could very well be living in Boston and have to work in Maine. So it's a it's a double-edged thing. But um, it's pretty reasonable, and um they've made it fairly, you know, online and everything now. It's fairly easy to pay. I have it automated so that I don't even see it. And it also sets some limits as to what I can do. So one thing that came up recently was I went to a theater and I was talking to the business manager at the theater, and he was describing how his costume designer, lighting designer, and sound designer were all on 829 contracts, but that he hadn't written an 829 contact contract for set design yet. And he asked me if I would consider working for the union rate without having a union contract. And um I was new to to this, and so I reached out to my to the business manager of my union, and he's he said, You don't have to tell me what theater it is, because I I would have to grieve them if you did. But he was like, You can't work, he was like, You can't work someplace if they've got union contracts for everybody but you. That's that's how you get thrown out of the union. And I was like, Okay, good, good to know. So um it was sort of a shame, but I had to turn the work down, and yeah, it's fine.
Nick Petrella:Yeah. I was a member of the musicians' union for many years, especially when I was playing a lot, and it's it sounds very, very similar.
Larry Heyman:Right.
Nick Petrella:You know, yeah. I mean there are correct, yeah.
Larry Heyman:Yeah, if there are analogous, you know, and and and it's just there are analogous stories, and it's just interesting because the IA has slowly kind of gone around and and absorbed other unions. There were guilds and other union unions. The one that I can think of, I believe, is local 600, which is cinematographers, and they're all in one union. And I think they were all in their own union, and then they organized under IA. And it's a huge umbrella, and it's international. It's it's in it's in the United States and Canada.
Andy Heise:So and it's you know, again, it's timely too. We just I can't can't remember the details now, but we just saw was it like the animators or the illustrators, the artists from in places like Disney and that sort of thing that they just organized as well. Yeah. So again, being aware and familiar with this is you know, yeah, and and understanding and different from city to city, but but just being aware that that it exists and you know the the implications of that.
Larry Heyman:That it's an o that's that it is it is an option that it may or may not suit you. Right, yeah, but that if if you join early enough, like I'm late, so the benefit to me is more about where I can work and having the stamp than it is anything else.
Speaker 4:Right.
Larry Heyman:Um and yes, they still send you a rubber stamp that has your union number and the and the and the logo of the union, and it's sort of a big deal the first time you put it on a drawing. Um, but um for for younger employees, I mean, there are benefits to it, like you know, a retirement fund and health benefits and things like that, where I have a friend who joined very early in his career and has worked as a um F like uh he's been the house carpenter, basically one of the one of the local employees who works on all of the various touring companies that come through at a major theater in Chicago, and he was able to retire with, you know, after how 25 years or something with full benefits and just a lot of other things. And also, entree that if he wants to come back and work, you know, gigs every once in a while, he's welcome to do it. And it's a great way to see shows and it's a great way to see touring musicians, and you know, there are definitely benefits, but it's not for everybody. Sure, sure.
Nick Petrella:So, Larry, I see a natural progression for how you went from studying design in college to working in theaters and films and so on. But how did you get started in trade show and other commercial work?
Larry Heyman:Um I went in the wrong door. No, that's a joke. Um That's an interesting quote. That's an interesting story, and and it it I it's one of the things that I sort of talked a little bit about the on when I at the at my at the talk that I gave when I mentioned to you. You have to be you have to be agreeable, you have to be a problem solver, you have to figure out a way, you can't be negative, you can't complain, you can't say, not my job. You have to go in with a positive attitude. And if you do, and you keep your friends, there's a very good chance that your friends will end up going places. Um the very, very first, no, not the very first, the the third or fourth movie that I worked on was directed by Brian Robbins, and Brian Robbins is now the CEO of Paramount. He and I aren't friends, but I didn't do anything to piss him off when I was when I was working for him. So, but that's that's not really that that's a side that's a side view. But the more important thing is um I worked with some people who had who found opportunities and sort of graduated from theater, moved into more full-time, um higher-paying positions doing slightly different things. And one of those people um is a dear friend of mine who I've known since 1988. And she was the prop master at the La Jolla Playhouse when I worked there. And she got an opportunity to work on props for uh a production company that was doing that was starting out and doing trade shows. And they decided they liked her, and so they kept her on, and she began hiring. Friends of hers, and they promoted her and moved her into sort of an art director position. And when they did that, she reached out to me and said, Hey, are you available for like two weeks in August to come to Houston? And I said, To do what? And she said, You're gonna you're gonna laugh at me, but it's to work on a trade show where they're intro where a pharmaceutical company is introducing a new anesthesia to salespeople. And it's their way of educating and entertaining the salespeople about this new product.
Announcer:Yeah.
Larry Heyman:And I thought, that is the most obtuse job like description that I've ever heard. And I said, What am I going to be doing? And she said, We're we're basically building the wing of a hospital in a convention center, and I need you to, I need somebody to prop it.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Larry Heyman:And so I went and did that, and it was it was just paying a stupid amount of money hourly. And they put me up in a hotel, they got me a rental car, they fed me, and I was like, oh my goodness, like what is this world? And that friend is now one of the, I think she's the execu one of the executive vice presidents of the production company. And she continues to hire me as sort of her her art, you know, her art gangster to come in and and create things. And when she hired me in the most recent iteration of the job, which I've now been doing for many years, she actually said, I need somebody who I can trust with a budget, who knows how to make a work list, who knows how to get things done, and who can motivate other people to get things done. And because I stayed friends with her, that sort of materialized. And now that I've met people that she knows, um, it's nice because I will go into a job with people who she knows. And they'll rather than making a decision themselves, they'll actually come to me and go, Can you come help us look at this room and figure out what we need to do with it? And then I stand there with a crew and adjust things. So it really is just a matter of keeping your friends, of keeping your options open, of never saying, I'm not gonna work corporate because it's like, you know, it's like uh uh cheaping out or something. It's like corporate corporate pays, like who cares? Do that. Exactly. Use it to pay your bills and use it as an opportunity to continue to put hinges on the stage and build wacky operas with upside-down things hanging overhead. You know what I mean?
Nick Petrella:And everybody everybody has a broad range of friends, and maybe people you met on that set, maybe they do theater. Maybe they do opera. I mean, it's the strange things happen, right?
Larry Heyman:Strange things happen, and people who you know, people who you have come up with, have maybe found different ways to um use their skill set. I worked with excuse me, I worked with one film employee who I don't even know how he got attached to it, but he he was working in a he was working in a city, and then I'm going back about 25 years, and he's it was a college town, and he encountered um a 24-hour donut shop that had a donut-making robot in the corn in the window, basically an automated machine where you dump the ingredients in and it produces donuts, and then all you have to do is glaze them and sell them. And he came up with this idea of what if I were to, I don't even know where he got it. I'll just walk you through it. What if I were to buy airstream trailers, turn them into food trucks, and set them up around the campuses of large universities selling donuts and coffee at all hours of the day and night. And I was like, you know, I don't even I don't even want to know what train of thought you followed to get there, but he actually retired from the industry and began selling donuts and coffee and and and has done fine. And so he's hired people who he knew in the industry to gut and rehab trailers for him. Right.
Nick Petrella:Yep.
Larry Heyman:Um, somebody that I went to college with became the um director of visual merchandising for a major, major um uh women's accessory company. I don't want to name the company, but a company that sells bags and duffels and luggage and purses and eyeglass cases. And this person, the set designer, became responsible for the entire visual signature of the company. So, you know, it just we we fill out a whole bunch of, we check a bunch of boxes with our knowledge and understanding of what we do.
Nick Petrella:Yeah, yeah. We have a student here who it did that exact same thing with the donuts, but she does it on a limited time. She doesn't do it 24 hours, and she's doing really well.
Larry Heyman:Yeah. I mean, I there was a there was a guy, another guy who started out, he wasn't in entertainment, he actually was a teacher, a school teacher, and and he was in Houston and he bought a used like cargo van, like you UPS style truck, and he you know cut a hole in the side and turned it and and got it got access to a commercial kitchen. And um, this was sort of at the beginning of social media explosion, so maybe going back 15, 20 years. But he opened a cup cupcake business where he would literally drive the van to a location, park it, tweet where he was, sell out, and then close up and go home. And, you know, it's just it's what you can imagine. So I I said it before. I think theater kids and people who are innovators kind of find ways. They see things that people like, they recognize that if you're selling, if you're selling, this is another good one, if you're selling 24-hour coffee and you add 24-hour soft serve ice cream in, you're probably going to do okay because nobody doesn't like both of those things, right? So anyway, yeah, I've gone way off. See, I'm in the weeds at this point.
Announcer:This is great, no. No. Thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please subscribe. Visit arts entrepreneurship podcast.com to learn more about our guest and how you can help support artists, the arts, and this podcast.
