#375: Kitty McNamee (Dance) (pt. 1 of 2)

This week on the podcast is part one of our interview with Los Angeles-based dancer, Kitty McNamee. She’s an artist, a creator and most importantly a collaborator. Her early years in LA were spent honing her craft as Artistic Director of Hysterica Dance Co., a prolific collective that redefined dance in Los Angeles. Kitty’s dance films have screened at over 50 festivals worldwide and she currently has several dance-centric documentary projects in development.

The long list of musical institutions and theaters she’s worked with include the Los Angeles Philharmonic, the LA Opera, the San Francisco Opera, the Lyric Opera of Chicago, the LA Ballet and the Pasadena Playhouse.In addition to her staged works, she’s collaborated on campaigns for businesses that include Target, Mercedes Benz and Uniqlo. 

You won't want to miss Kitty’s inspiring and collaborative approach to arts entrepreneurship. https://www.kittymcnamee.com/about and https://www.lapopsup.com/about

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Announcer 0:18

Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast, Making Art Work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion, and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent, or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts, Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.

Andy Heise 1:01

Hi Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners. My name is Andy Heise.

Nick Petrella 1:05

And I'm Nick Petrella. With us today is Kitty McNamee. She's an artist, a creator, and most importantly, a collaborator. Her early years in LA were spent honing her craft as artistic director of Hysterica Dance Company, a prolific collective that redefined dance in Los Angeles. Kitty's dance films have screened at over 50 festivals worldwide, and she currently has several dance-centric documentary projects in development. The long list of musical institutions and theaters she's worked with include the Los Angeles Philharmonic, the LA Opera, the San Francisco Opera, the Lyric Opera of Chicago, the LA Ballet, and the Pasadena Playhouse. In addition to her staged works, she's collaborated on campaigns for businesses that include Target, Mercedes-Benz, and UNICLO. We'll have Kitty's websites in the show notes so you can read more about her and all she's done throughout her lengthy career. Thanks for coming on the podcast, Kitty.

Discovering Dance Through Live Performance

Kitty McNamee 2:01

Hi, thanks for having me.

Nick Petrella 2:03

You had an eclectic and prolific career, and I read that you came to dance later in life. What were you doing prior to dance and what made you make the switch?

Kitty McNamee 2:12

Well, prior to dance, I was just an average kid in Ohio going to high school. And I uh, you know, I started dancing at 17, which is super, super late, particularly for a girl. And I was just sort of living a dull life in Ohio and searching for meaning. And uh was fascinated by movie musicals. And then when I saw dance in real life, I was just like it just rocked my world and turned me in a completely different direction.

Andy Heise 2:45

Yeah.

Nick Petrella 2:46

Yeah. So okay, I'll take the bait. I'm currently living in Ohio. Where where are you from?

Kitty McNamee 2:51

Ashland.

Nick Petrella 2:53

Oh, okay. I know where that is.

Kitty McNamee 2:55

I've been to right next to Mansfield.

Nick Petrella 2:58

Yep. I I don't know Mansfield, but I've been to Ashland.

Kitty McNamee 3:01

Awesome. It's a small town.

Nick Petrella 3:03

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So when you say later in life, you you didn't mean much later.

Kitty McNamee 3:08

No, 17 is very late for a dancer.

Nick Petrella 3:12

Yeah.

Andy Heise 3:13

Okay.

Kitty McNamee 3:14

Most people stop then.

Andy Heise 3:15

Yeah. That's true. Do you remember uh what the the dance the piece that you saw or the the performance that you saw and sort of what you felt what inspired you to to take up dance at that point?

Kitty McNamee 3:30

I do. I you know I watched, as I said, movie musicals on TV. That was my only access to anything like that. Um I lived in the country, it was a small town, and then the Joffrey 2, a small division of Joffrey came through, and um somehow I ended up at the performance at the local college. And I literally, it was like a bolt of lightning hit me. I saw it and I thought that's what I've been looking for. That's cool, and that was it.

Andy Heise 4:08

Yeah, that's cool. I remember as a kid going to see a small town, you know, 20 I don't know how big um Ashland was, but is, but um I grew up in a small town, about 20,000 people. And I know just even going to see our local, you know, community orchestra play, like that was like it's like okay, that's seeing it live and on TV, like just a completely different experience, right? Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 4:33

Yes. Yes.

Nick Petrella 4:36

You know, one of the things that we say here, and I know I find myself saying this all the time. I used to travel quite a bit, talent is everywhere, but access isn't. And who knows, had you never had the opportunity to see that, yeah, what what you could be doing.

Kitty McNamee 4:50

No, it's absolutely true. I wouldn't have known it was an option.

Andy Heise 4:53

Yeah. Yeah. Being an accountant or something. Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 4:56

Probably not.

Training Fast With Limited Access

Andy Heise 5:00

A creative accountant. Yeah. All right. Um, and so then you so then you took up dance. Um, can you kind of fill in the gap from the story you just told and sort of that trajectory to hysterica? Um, it seems like there's there's probably a lot to fill in in the in the blanks there.

Kitty McNamee 5:23

Absolutely. So I, you know, I had access, I had an amazing teacher in that small town, a woman named Helen Gacinski, and she had been in Chicago dancing for Gus Giordano, and she moved back. She had kids, she moved back to Ashland, and I had auditioned for the high school drill team, which was super glamorous in my eyes. And the first year I had not been dancing ever, so I didn't get in. And the second year I had been taking class from this woman, so I got in. So that was like, I know it sounds silly, but to my little high school eyes, it was like the greatest achievement. You know, I had a goal, I met it, and I just was living my best life out there. Um, and then my family moved to Texas for my last year of high school. And um because Helen was from Chicago, I had heard about Gus Giordano and I had taken like a workshop with them. And I was also obsessed with Dance Magazine at that time. So I was pouring through Dance Magazine and I saw an ad for the High School for Performing and Visual Arts in Houston. So I spoke to my parents and I said, okay, I want to audition for that high school. And it came down to I had a choice for that summer. I could go to Houston, audition. Now I'd only been dancing for a year.

Andy Heise 6:58

Right, yeah.

Kitty McNamee 6:59

So I could go to Houston, audition for that high school, or I could go to Chicago and do like a dance teacher training because they had offered me that for some reason. I guess people could see that I understood movement, even if my body wasn't there yet.

Andy Heise 7:16

Sure, sure.

Kitty McNamee 7:17

So um luckily my dad was as crazy as I am, and he said, Let's go, you pick, and I'll take you to whichever one you want to do. Wow.

Nick Petrella 7:28

That's wonderful.

Kitty McNamee 7:29

Yeah, I was very lucky. So I decided, you know, I would have a year of dance instead of just a summer.

Andy Heise 7:37

Yeah.

Finding A Career Path In LA

Kitty McNamee 7:38

So we flew to Houston, I auditioned, and by some miracle I got in. Again, I think they must have seen that I could understand it, even though I couldn't really do it very well. Um, and then I went to college, and then I bounced to New York for a minute, and then I ended up in LA. And I was sort of just following friends, trying to find my footing because as much as I loved dance, as my ballet teacher told me, dance had to love me. And I I just physically wasn't that strong, you know, partly because I had started late and just wasn't in my makeup to be like a powerhouse. Um, but uh I started thinking that maybe because the performance and the drama and the storytelling was really what I was interested in, maybe I should become an actress. So I moved to LA and I joined a theater company, and I'm not an actress, and it was really bad. Like, I just it's not my personality.

Nick Petrella 8:50

Yeah, yeah.

Kitty McNamee 8:51

I can get really shy, I don't really like people looking at me. It's just like the worst match.

Nick Petrella 8:57

But you but you dance though, tried it, yeah.

Kitty McNamee 9:01

But I didn't have to speak, I think it's different somehow.

Nick Petrella 9:04

Yeah, what do you have to know? Five, six, seven, eight, right?

Building A Company For Fringe

Kitty McNamee 9:07

Yeah, I don't know. I could do that, I don't know. But uh so I was in the theater company and I started choreographing their plays. Got it, and I was like, oh, this is a breeze. Like, I should be an actress, that's hard. Um, and then luckily I came to my senses and realized that no, not everybody can choreograph a play. This is actually a skill. Yeah, and I started getting work, but I wanted just in my gut, I wanted to make my own quote unquote work.

Andy Heise 9:38

Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 9:41

So I started choreographing for my friends, making up making up dances and doing small little pop-up shows. And then I decided again, another crazy idea. I've got to go to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival.

Andy Heise 9:59

Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 10:00

I've I don't know why I decided on that, but it was I have to go, I have to show my work there. I applied, I got in, and then they said, but you have to have a company.

Andy Heise 10:11

Oh.

Kitty McNamee 10:12

So some of the folks I was dancing with, I said, you know what, I'm forming a company, and just like it's going to be hysterical.

Nick Petrella 10:22

Wow.

Kitty McNamee 10:23

Do you want to join? And they all said yes.

Nick Petrella 10:25

So that's amazing. That's great. Yeah, before we go on, it is your background, was it ballet, contemporary? Did you do a uh variety?

Kitty McNamee 10:35

Mainly modern and jazz.

Nick Petrella 10:38

Okay.

Kitty McNamee 10:38

I did I did study ballet, but again, you know, it was like that's shiphead sailed. So I did study ballet. I I love ballet still to this day. I'm fascinated by it. But mainly contemporary, modern and jazz.

Andy Heise 10:54

Yeah. Okay. And I I love that you created this company because you had to. Like you it wasn't necessarily like, oh, I have this vision for where I want to go and this thing I want to do, so let's create the company. I mean, it was sort of that way, but it was it was a reaction, it was reactionary versus proactive. I I think that's amazing. Yes, yeah.

Kitty McNamee 11:14

Definitely.

Andy Heise 11:15

Yeah, that that's so that's so interesting. And what reason did they give you?

Kitty McNamee 11:22

For um, you just had to have a company in order to book a theater.

Andy Heise 11:27

It's probably some rather than an individual doing it, you had to have a computer. That's what I was wondering. Yeah, it's probably some technical thing.

Kitty McNamee 11:35

Yeah, some technical thing, you know, to to to bring your work as a choreographer, they wanted you to have a company.

Andy Heise 11:41

Especially internationally, maybe or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting.

Nick Petrella 11:47

And so how how do you arrange most of your work these days? And has that how's that changed over the years?

Kitty McNamee 11:55

Um, it's changed a lot. Um now I'm I'm very, very lucky that I'm still working. I never take that for granted because it's just really hard to have a career in the arts.

Andy Heise 12:10

Sure. Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 12:11

And um I have a wonderful community here. And I have some community in New York also, but um, you know, now it's most of my work is like return customer. So people like, thank God I've had this great relationship with the LA Opera for over 20 years. So, you know, just when you think, I'll never work again, they'll email me and say, Could you please do Turn Dot and Marriage a Figaro next season? Wow. And I say, Yes, please, I would love to.

Andy Heise 12:47

That's awesome.

Kitty McNamee 12:48

Um, so most of it, actually, most of it for all of us is word of mouth or relationships. So it just can, you know, once you start building those, it becomes more and more that way. And and also I think that the the whole system for working as a as a commercial or working choreographer is so different now because they used to go to the agents, and then the agents would sort of hand out, you know, let's give this one to kitty and let's give this one to so-and-so. Now people are coming directly to the artist. Interesting.

Nick Petrella 13:24

Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 13:25

Because of social media primarily.

Nick Petrella 13:27

Yeah. It's probably better, I would imagine, financially.

Kitty McNamee 13:31

No, the agents still want to cut.

Andy Heise 13:33

Oh, so you see, so you still have agents for some types of work, but not as much as maybe it used to be. Yeah.

Nick Petrella 13:43

I see. So the middle layer's still there.

Kitty McNamee 13:47

Yes, they're still there. And they do come in handy in certain situations. Right.

Andy Heise 13:51

Sure, sure. I mean they must.

Kitty McNamee 13:54

A lesser known, like, if you're working for Eli Opera, you know they're legitimate, right? Yeah, you'll be protected.

Andy Heise 14:03

Yeah. Yeah, I would imagine some of the more institutional gigs probably have to go through agents, maybe. Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 14:12

Yeah, and and and it's better to have something like a music video or something that could have less uh controls on it. That's really important to have an agent then.

Andy Heise 14:23

I see. For all the contractual sort of uh navigating that the whole negotiation, contractual agreements.

Kitty McNamee 14:31

Aaron Powell And making sure you get paid.

Nick Petrella 14:33

Okay. And we're gonna touch on some of that stuff later, sure. Yeah, because that just fascinates me. Yeah.

Institutional Budgets Versus DIY Producing

Andy Heise 14:38

And so you've mentioned like so you've worked with these big institutions, LA, LA um opera, et cetera. Uh, but you've also done your own things. You've built your own projects and and done your own productions and that sort of thing. Does the way that you think about your work change depending on which side of that line you're on? You're working for an institution versus doing your own thing.

Kitty McNamee 15:00

Yes, very much so. And and I remember I had a hysterica for 10 years, and it was a very low budget, but we still got to do large-scale performances, but you know, our budget was super low, and I did everything. Like I cast the dancers, I produced a show, I choreographed a show, I talked to the box office. I had the costumes built to my apartment, like yeah, everything. And then I remember my first opera job. I walked in, they gave me the schedule, they said, You come to these rehearsals, we'll do everything else. And I thought, oh wow, yeah. And you're gonna pay me. Awesome.

Andy Heise 15:50

Right, that's true, because you do all that work for hysterica, and it may not be a lucrative endeavor, right?

Kitty McNamee 15:56

No, not at all. I mean, not financially.

Andy Heise 15:58

Right, right, right.

Kitty McNamee 16:00

But what it's natively, yeah.

Nick Petrella 16:03

Yeah, what it did do is it gave you a 360 view of the value chain and every aspect that goes into it. So I bet you approached that job with empathy that maybe others didn't.

Kitty McNamee 16:16

So much respect for everyone who's working on the production. And you have gratitude because you've done it, yeah, you know what it takes. And and also I think you know being in a leadership position and seeing how people deal with each other, you understand the value of being super professional and being respectful from the other side. Yeah.

Nick Petrella 16:48

Yeah. All the stuff that they at least traditionally haven't gone over in college and things, you're you're learning your craft, right? I mean focused. Yeah. Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 16:58

Yeah. And I had 10 years of practicing my skills.

Contracts Ownership And Union Protection

Nick Petrella 17:02

That's right. Yeah. That's right. That's exactly right. I'd like to go back and talk about contracts you you had mentioned. So when you sign a contract with an organization to choreograph a work, who owns that work and are you able to use it, portions of it, or derivatives of the work in the future?

Kitty McNamee 17:22

Well, most choreography jobs, almost all of them, are work for hire.

Andy Heise 17:29

Okay.

Kitty McNamee 17:29

This is a very, very interesting. Obviously, if I work at the opera, they own everything.

Andy Heise 17:35

Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 17:36

If I work at LA Phil, I'm creating uh, you know, I do a lot of their Symphony for Use where I'll direct and and make up uh like a performance to Firebird. They technically do own that show, even though I created it. I'm basic, I am work for hire. Um so almost always it's work for hire. This is so interesting though, because I'm also a member of STC, which is the stage directors and choreographers union, which handles mainly it doesn't handle opera work, that's AGMA, but it handles if you do a Broadway show or an off-Broadway show, any theater. Um, and they have been, you know, really instrumental in trying to protect the rights of choreographers.

Nick Petrella 18:33

Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 18:34

And this stems back to, I could use Vincent Patterson as an example. He was hired to do a lot of work for Michael Jackson for his tours, for music videos, and he was hired as a work for hire. So he made up with Michael Jackson, you know, some really famous things like the moonlock or that big lean and smooth criminal. Yeah, he does not own the choreography, the Michael Jackson estate does. So then they make a musical, MJ that's running on Broadway. If if if Vincent recreated his own choreography, he could technically get sued by MJ's estate because it's in MJ, the musical now. Yeah, it's really, it's really fascinating.

Nick Petrella 19:33

So you're signing standard contracts, or are there clauses that you could put in there and say, if Cleveland, if Pittsburgh wants to do this, they can you can you can consult with them?

Kitty McNamee 19:48

Um well for the opera contracts, it's standard.

Nick Petrella 19:53

It's standard, okay.

Kitty McNamee 19:54

And you're really a piece of the puzzle. Even if I direct it, which I have directed an opera there, they own it.

Andy Heise 20:01

Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 20:02

There's no way I could say they could hire, they could send me with a production somewhere else.

Andy Heise 20:07

I see.

Kitty McNamee 20:07

And then I would get paid to reset it.

Andy Heise 20:09

Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 20:10

But yeah, it's it's very interesting. And and you know, dance and choreographers are low on the totem pole. We don't have a lot of power.

Andy Heise 20:19

Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 20:20

They're kind of the bottom of most jobs, unfortunately.

Andy Heise 20:24

And that, you know, that's that's a that's a challenge, right? Because if you if you push back and say, no, I if you take this on the road or do something else with it, I want a royalty or something like that, they may say, um, no thanks, and move on to a different choreographer. Next. Yeah. Right. And so that's a risk, right? That's it's kind of one of those one of those interesting um barriers that you come up against.

Kitty McNamee 20:47

And you could for I think on TV work, directors get a residual.

Andy Heise 20:55

Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 20:56

However, it is not the choreographer is the only one working on a set who's not under a union contract as as of right now.

Andy Heise 21:03

Interesting.

Kitty McNamee 21:04

We're fighting that. There's a guild now that's fighting that, but they've tried to fight it before in the 80s and 90s and it didn't work.

Nick Petrella 21:12

Crazy. So it's crazy. Just so I understand that, because there could be dancers, well, we'll likely be dancers listening to this. Uh almost all of your work is work for hire?

Kitty McNamee 21:25

Yes.

Nick Petrella 21:26

Okay.

Kitty McNamee 21:26

I will say though that if I do an STC contract, which for stage, I will have the right of first refusal for those contracts. So if they're gonna do the production again, they have to ask me first. And then I think that if they don't use me, if they recreate any of my choreography, they would have to give me a royalty. Or if it's running on Broadway and then it tours, the original choreographer would get a royalty. Right. But that's SCC was formed because you Know people like Agnes DeMille and Bob Fossey refuse to work unless they would have the contract. So it has to come down to something like that, a pivotal person or persons who are so important and powerful and refuse to work unless things change.

Andy Heise 22:16

Yeah.

Nick Petrella 22:17

It's interesting. It's going to be interesting to see how it plays out.

Kitty McNamee 22:20

Yeah.

Nick Petrella 22:22

I think back just to sorry, go ahead, finish your thought. No, I was just going to say any any timeline. I mean, we look we're looking at months, years for some resolution.

Kitty McNamee 22:31

For uh choreography on film, I really couldn't say because they've made huge strides in the last year.

Andy Heise 22:40

Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 22:40

But it could take years.

Andy Heise 22:42

Yeah. Okay. I mean, I think back to, I don't know, probably shoot, I don't know. It's been maybe 10 years ago now or so. Like on-screen musicals and on TV music, like that, those were that was like the hot genre. There was all kinds of one all kinds of them coming out. And so you're saying the choreographers who worked on that probably don't see any residuals or royalties from that? I know it all depends, it's all negotiable, but um likely.

Kitty McNamee 23:12

Typically, no, it's not under contract. Right. The director would.

Andy Heise 23:17

Right. All the performers, etc. Right?

Kitty McNamee 23:20

All the performers would. Um, but it's also at the discretion of the producer. Of course. So say if you have a producer who really wants you on the project, they could put you under uh like a SAG contract. Yeah. And so you would have more protections. Yeah, it's really it's there, like one of the huge strides that they just made was IMDB. This is just this would just give you context. That's where they list all of your percussional jobs. Um, for you know, there's Broadway, but then there's IMDB, which is for uh film and TV work commercials. Until this year, there was not even a core choreographer category. You were listed as additional crew.

Andy Heise 24:11

Interesting. Wow. I was not aware of that.

Kitty McNamee 24:13

So that's a huge gain. All of my work, they would just say I was additional crew. I could have been a caterer.

Nick Petrella 24:19

Right. Yeah, exactly. Right. And as a musician, we're both musicians, and I would have just I just assumed that we all had our same. Wow.

Andy Heise 24:29

That is it's very revealing too, right? To your to your point. It's um, yeah, and and again, uh having not been on the inside of that, I had no idea that that was that was the case. Interesting.

Kitty McNamee 24:41

But like the Agma contracts for opera work, it's critical to be on them because you have protection.

Nick Petrella 24:46

Right. Yeah, sure.

Kitty McNamee 24:48

And STC for theater work, you have some protection.

Audience Expectations In Opera And Film

Andy Heise 24:54

Fascinating. Um so the LA Philharmonic audience and like a dance film festival, which we haven't even talked about your films yet, which we'll do. Um, which you've created, uh Nick mentioned in the intro that you have um you've you've featured a lot, you've done a lot of uh different dance-based films at a lot of different film festivals. So I'm thinking an LA Philharmonic or an LA opera audience is very different than a a uh film festival audience. Um and they come with very, they expect very different things. So does that also impact how you approach your work?

Kitty McNamee 25:35

Yes, absolutely. I mean, the opera or the fill, you have to know your audience. And also you're working with like this extraordinary music that is your roadmap. The or you know, if you're doing Figaro, you have the story, you have to fulfill it. The director chooses the period or the framework. It's very, it's very articulated what you need to do. For my film work, it's more like what I did with my company, which is part of why I started doing it. Because I can do whatever the hell I want. Um, it's so freeing, so exciting. It's riskier because maybe nobody likes what you do, but um being able to have like complete control over what you're creating is is really just super fulfilling.

Announcer 26:33

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