#376: Kitty McNamee (Dance) (pt. 2 of 2)

This week on the podcast is part two of our interview with Los Angeles-based dancer, Kitty McNamee. She’s an artist, a creator and most importantly a collaborator. Her early years in LA were spent honing her craft as Artistic Director of Hysterica Dance Co., a prolific collective that redefined dance in Los Angeles. Kitty’s dance films have screened at over 50 festivals worldwide and she currently has several dance-centric documentary projects in development.

The long list of musical institutions and theaters she’s worked with include the Los Angeles Philharmonic, the LA Opera, the San Francisco Opera, the Lyric Opera of Chicago, the LA Ballet and the Pasadena Playhouse.In addition to her staged works, she’s collaborated on campaigns for businesses that include Target, Mercedes Benz and Uniqlo. 

You won't want to miss Kitty’s inspiring and collaborative approach to arts entrepreneurship. https://www.kittymcnamee.com/about and https://www.lapopsup.com/about

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Announcer 0:18

Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast, Making Art Work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion, and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent, or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts, Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.

Andy Heise 1:01

Hi Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners. My name is Andy Heise.

Nick Petrella 1:05

And I'm Nick Petrella. With us today is Kitty McNamee. She's an artist, a creator, and most importantly, a collaborator. Her early years in LA were spent honing her craft as artistic director of Hysterica Dance Company, a prolific collective that redefined dance in Los Angeles. Kitty's dance films have screened at over 50 festivals worldwide, and she currently has several dance-centric documentary projects in development. The long list of musical institutions and theaters she's worked with include the Los Angeles Philharmonic, the LA Opera, the San Francisco Opera, the Lyric Opera of Chicago, the LA Ballet, and the Pasadena Playhouse. In addition to her staged works, she's collaborated on campaigns for businesses that include Target, Mercedes Benz, and UNICLO. We'll have Kitty's websites in the show notes so you can read more about her and all she's done throughout her lengthy career. Thanks for coming on the podcast, Kitty.

How Medium Shapes Creative Choices

Kitty McNamee 2:01

Hi. Thanks for having me.

Nick Petrella 2:03

I was going to ask this question later, but it it really ties into it. So you work in a lot of mediums. Film, stage, uh commercials, right, for Mercedes. Does the medium change the way you create? And if so, how?

Kitty McNamee 2:20

Absolutely. I mean, it gives you a set of rules, right? Like if you're playing a classical piece of music, you would have a certain set of rules. If you're doing jazz and you're improvising, certain set of rules. So all of these things have like a container you have to work within. And it, you know, working with the camera, that's a whole nother beast. Like I I grew up um working on stage. So you know, you have this pristine perspective, you know, like how to how to make the audience look where you want them to look and how to navigate the ins and outs of it. And for camera, it's completely different because you have the ability to also direct the eye, but uh you really can control uh the I don't know how to say it. You can control the way you really just can you it's like more four-dimensional almost, right? Because you have the movement in the space, but you also have the movement of the camera. Um and yeah, they're all so different, and it's really fun for me to flip between, and it's stimulating. And I think that one of the things that helped me have longevity is I would I there was one point where I was doing a lifetime movie, which was setting ballet for a lifetime movie. It was um kind of crazy movie. But there were ballet dancers in it, and then at the same time, I was working to LA Opera. Right, and so uh what was I doing there? Oh my god.

Andy Heise 4:16

Amazing.

Nick Petrella 4:17

Contractually, it was substantially different, though, I'm sure.

Kitty McNamee 4:22

Yes, but the opera people loved that I was doing a lifetime movie. Of course, yeah, and the Lifetime movie loved that I was doing an opera. So the the back and forth was it was uh it was very it was a good fertilizer.

Andy Heise 4:38

Yeah, that's awesome. I've been thinking about that a little bit recently, like how artists will not like change what they do, but they'll extend what they do for a different uh in a different area or a different and in this case it was very complimentary, which is which is interesting, yeah. One informs wouldn't be, but it was, yeah. You know, like oh you're selling out and doing doing lifetime or whatever, right? Versus like it versus staying pure to the ballet art form or whatever. Yeah, but anyways, it's art. It's right, yeah. You know?

Kitty McNamee 5:10

Well, with hysterica, I uh also as context, I had never been in a dance company. I'd certainly never had a dance company, I'd only read about them.

Andy Heise 5:22

Right.

Kitty McNamee 5:22

Then I started my own company, and more the more serious dance makers or artists in LA at the time were not into what I was doing.

Andy Heise 5:33

Yeah, that makes sense.

Kitty McNamee 5:34

And I would I had somebody ask me, like, are you okay? People are defining your work as pop. And because still then, like the dancers I was working with were working on a tour for Britney Spears or Dancing in a Gap commercial. And I was like, Yes, pop is fine because pop is popular.

Andy Heise 5:54

Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 5:55

And I would rather be popular and have people come see my work, even if they're not a dance audience, which they weren't. Most of our audience was TV and film people, fashion people, musicians. Fascinating. Not not the little pocket of modern dance that was happening at the time.

Nick Petrella 6:13

Yeah. I mean, what shows you what can be when you're not encumbered with a my mental set, with a paradigm.

Andy Heise 6:19

That's right.

Nick Petrella 6:19

Right? And and basically, you created a business card, a three-dimensional artistic business card for 10 years that propelled you to the work you're doing now.

Kitty McNamee 6:32

Yeah, I hadn't thought of it, but you're right.

Nick Petrella 6:35

Yeah, you can use that for free.

Kitty McNamee 6:37

Okay.

Andy Heise 6:41

Well, to that point, my next question was like, how did you get into some more of the commercial work? Um, like you I mean luck. Like honestly. Luck, yeah. Because Mick Nick mentioned in the intro again, you know, um, I think it was uh Mercedes and um Uniclo. Uniqlo and Target, etc. Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 7:02

Yeah, some my agents would send me in for.

Andy Heise 7:04

Oh, okay.

Kitty McNamee 7:05

And then this is ironic, but they would ask they what is somebody artistic? So they would put me in that and you had high-level.

Andy Heise 7:15

You had the experience of doing the ballets, etc., and running your own company. Yep.

Kitty McNamee 7:20

Yes, which I think is really ironic because we're all artists, but because my background was in the ballet or fine arts, I was, you know, classified as an artist. But and then also I was gonna say that my first opera job, my friend Sergio Trujillo, had been hired to choreograph Romeo and Juliet, and he got a Broadway show. So he introduced me to the director, and luckily the director decided to take a chance on me. And that's how I got into the opera. So it's relationships really.

Grants Relationships And Knowing Limits

Nick Petrella 7:57

Yeah. Wow. That is. Um I'm gonna change gears here, talk a little bit about grant writing, because you've had some success with uh with grants. Do you have any suggestions for others who are interested in applying for grants, specifically for dance, but in general?

Kitty McNamee 8:15

Okay, confession. I'm terrible at grant writing.

Nick Petrella 8:21

So do you work with someone?

Kitty McNamee 8:23

I have worked with someone, and for Dance Camera West, which hosts uh Ellie Pops Up, my new venture, the woman who runs that, Kelly Hargraves, is a genius at grant writing.

Nick Petrella 8:35

Okay, so your advice is to find someone like Kelly. Yes. Okay.

Kitty McNamee 8:41

My advice is know your limits and lean into your strengths. And grant writing, I just I'm not successful.

Andy Heise 8:51

Yeah. Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 8:52

I don't know what it is. I I really, and I just every time I do it, I spend so much time and energy, and then it's not fruitful. And I think, what am I doing?

Nick Petrella 9:02

Yeah, yeah. What could you have done while you were writing that grant?

Kitty McNamee 9:06

Yeah.

Andy Heise 9:08

What do you think it is that Kelly's doing that you're not, or what's do you do you have any idea what the difference is, or you know?

Kitty McNamee 9:17

I think uh bottom line, she's a better writer.

Andy Heise 9:21

Okay.

Kitty McNamee 9:22

Um, but she writes to the grant.

Andy Heise 9:26

Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 9:26

And she understands what they're asking for, and she's really able to articulate back to them how she could do what they're asking for.

Andy Heise 9:36

Yeah. She knows grant speaks.

Kitty McNamee 9:39

She does. She does. And she's got a 20 years of experience of doing it and being successful.

LA Pops Up Takes Dance Films Global

Nick Petrella 9:46

Yeah. Uh right, well, I was gonna ask this uh later, but we can just we can just talk about it now. You had mentioned the collaboration with LA Pops Up. Well, tell us about that.

Kitty McNamee 9:57

Yeah, this is I'm just super excited about it. It it embraces several things that I am super passionate about. Community is the first thing. And then like my making my own personal films, all of the films that are on LA Pops Up are the personal vision of these choreographers who are working. So um it's this is another crazy idea. But I had like a year and a half ago, I have three or four dance films I've made, and they've been very successful in uh the festival world. They go out on the circuit, I've screened at like over 50 festivals worldwide. But then after you know, nine months or a year, they just sit there and nobody sees them. And I thought, not only for my work, but really good friends of mine and really, really successful choreographers like Ryan Heppington, who just did Aperture Harry Styles uh music video and the Bad Bunny Super Bowl commercial, and he's on Euphoria. Like he has films that he's made that are his own personal vision, and they're just sitting on a shelf. So I thought, why not do like the inverse of what Dance Camera West was? They've screened a few of my films, and that's where Kelly is. And what she does is she brings films from all over the world, and she screens them in LA and sort of connects LA to the world. So I thought I'd like to do the opposite. Take all the films from dance filmmakers I know here in LA, take them out to the world.

Andy Heise 11:40

Wow.

Kitty McNamee 11:41

And I had the idea, I talked to Kelly because she has the framework, she has a lot of relationships with festivals, and she's like, let's give it a try. So the this is like year, I think in the summer it will be two years since I had the idea. Yeah, and it's been spectacular.

Nick Petrella 12:02

Positive response.

Kitty McNamee 12:04

Oh my god, positive response from the filmmakers. So I went out to uh for the first year, I went out to friends of mine, like Ryan Huffington, Nina McNeely, Tony Testa, Mike Taez, and I said, you know, I want to do LA Pops Up. Can I show your film? And they all said yes.

Nick Petrella 12:23

Yeah, I would imagine.

Kitty McNamee 12:25

So we popped up in Bulgaria, was the very first one at a festival called Moving Body, and then we popped up at Dance Camera West in January 2025. That was kind of the inaugural event. And it was all the filmmakers came. It was amazing. We had a big QA after. Everyone was really excited to see their work together because that's the other thing to see all of these films in a cinema together, not on YouTube.

Nick Petrella 12:56

And so there's no live dancing with this. It's pure pure film.

Kitty McNamee 13:00

It's all film. Yes. Yeah.

Nick Petrella 13:01

But they are all dance films.

Kitty McNamee 13:03

They're all dance films, and they're made by dance filmmakers based in LA or you know, Southern California.

Andy Heise 13:12

Well, that that's it's it's interesting that I mean that's not your work. Why are you investing so much of your time in it? Like you're you're you know, why why do that?

Kitty McNamee 13:24

I think it is critical for me, like at my stage of life, to open the door, open the water, let it flow for all the people coming after me. And and my whole career, actually, it has been, you know. I don't know if it's a weakness. I don't think it is. I mean, I probably could have been more financially successful if I had just focused on myself. But I really love dance and I really love creativity. And I think the only way to keep it going is to make it possible for other people to do it. And you gotta kind of help the next generation along. Yeah, even with hysterica, like the people who are in my company, as Ryan Heffington was one of the original members of the company. Part of my directive was I was doing all of my own work. I wouldn't hire outside choreographers because I made it to show my work, but then I I started incorporating Ryan as doing some choreography, and then Nina was doing some choreography to give, you know, you you if you wanted to survive, you have to nurture the next generation. Sure.

Nick Petrella 14:43

Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 14:44

And and for this, it's like it's it's like, okay, if I'm just eating by myself, it's kind of lonely. But if I have this banquet, yeah, you know, and everybody's at the table.

Nick Petrella 14:58

Absolutely. Yeah.

Opera Choreography Timelines And Pay

Kitty McNamee 15:01

So much richer.

Nick Petrella 15:02

You talk about nurturing the next generation, and it's kind of the question that I have for young dancers who who could be listening. Would you mind walking us through the process of choreographing for stage and the length of time it takes, say, from contract to the first performance? Just so they have an understanding of accepted best practices.

Kitty McNamee 15:24

Well, I I could speak to like uh a musical or play and an opera, like that time frame is more standard, I guess, than my own work. So I'll I'll I'll speak more to that. For an opera, the actual in in studio uh or or on stage time is really within three weeks. Uh, I do an incredible amount of prep leading up to that three weeks. I'll sometimes be contracted a year out or eight months out. I mean, I know I have two at LA Opera next spring of 2027. So, you know, ideally you're contracted far in advance, so you can get the music, get the score, get the libretto, get the context from the director, and prepare. Um, but the opera is kind of terrifying because you will have three weeks to set a three-hour opera.

Nick Petrella 16:31

Wilders.

Kitty McNamee 16:32

And yeah, the best advice I was given was by the first opera director I worked with because he knew my background in concert dance. And he said, you cannot play. You prepare everything, you come to rehearsal and you set it, and you're done. There's no playing. And he terrified me, and it was the best. Yeah, it saved me. I I would have been fired for sure if I hadn't listened to what he said.

Andy Heise 17:06

Meaning, meaning, hey, let's let's try this and see if this works. None of that.

Kitty McNamee 17:10

No.

Andy Heise 17:11

Here it is.

Kitty McNamee 17:12

No, yeah, this is what you do. You can adjust, right? But this is you're prepared and you know what you're gonna set. You don't come in and make it up. Yeah, I would love to come in and make it up. I did that with my own work. Yeah, I love that. And and you kind of have to tap into something. Yeah, you've got to tap into something, but yeah, to be fully prepared when you when you walk in. I would say prep-wise, maybe it would take me. This is very general, but like an hour or one minute of choreography. So that's kind of a formula.

Andy Heise 17:47

Can you say that again? Did you say one hour per minute of choreography? Yes.

Kitty McNamee 17:50

Okay. Yeah. So if I had like a music video and I knew there was going to be a minute of choreography, it would take me an hour.

Andy Heise 17:59

Yeah. Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 18:01

Um, you know, generally. Yeah. Or for a play, if I know there's, you know, 12 minutes, that will be 12 hours of uh prep. Yep. You know, the gods shine on you and it can just come out really quickly.

Nick Petrella 18:15

Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 18:16

Or you could have a problem, it could take longer, but that's kind of a formula.

Andy Heise 18:20

Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 18:21

And I think for plays, generally you have more time, but it depends on the theater, really. But there's never like a luxury of time.

Nick Petrella 18:29

Yeah. I guess you could have people stand there for 12 minutes. So, okay. It's like the repeat sign for music. Anyway, um, practical question again for young dancers. You're getting contracted a year out. When do you first start seeing money? Like what should they expect? Is it at the end? Do you have it in tranches? Do you how does that work?

Kitty McNamee 18:54

Well, for this is why the union work is good. For um SDC, so if I work at the LA Philharmonic, I'm on an SDC contract.

Andy Heise 19:07

Okay.

Kitty McNamee 19:08

So I would get paid a third when I sign, a third on the first day of rehearsal, and then a third when it opens. And the same thing for the opera. It can be in thirds or it could be in halves. But you want the ideal is to be at opening night for have them to give you an envelope with your final payment.

Andy Heise 19:34

Right. Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 19:36

Yeah. I always look for that person who hands out the envelope.

Nick Petrella 19:40

Where are you? Yeah, exactly. I'm here. Under the blue light, under the stage door. Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 19:46

Yeah. Exactly.

Nick Petrella 19:48

What about changes? So if something's going on tour, you have the opening night and then something's not working, or you get to another hall that's different, right? If they're taking something on tour, surely they're you get reimbursed for that time that you'd have to do if you have to tweak something. Or have you done it? Yes, for sure. Yeah, okay.

Kitty McNamee 20:08

Yeah, yeah. Or like that, Romeo and Juliet production also moved to Chicago. So I would go to Chicago with it and get my full fee for the work I'm doing.

Nick Petrella 20:19

Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 20:20

Even if I've already created all the choreography, I have to restage it on different people. So I would get my full fee for that.

Filmmaking Advice And Final Takeaways

Andy Heise 20:27

Yeah, yeah. Great, great. I think I will ask this last question though. Um so we we've talked we've we've talked about your films, but why why did you get into filmmaking about dance? Like it could have started another dance company or something like that, right? So why, why, why did you decide to seriously pursue films and take them on the film festival circuits?

Kitty McNamee 20:50

Well, there's a correlation between when I was doing choreographing the plays, and then I started doing hysterica. So I was working commercially, doing some commercials and some TV, and I wanted to sort of figure out how to do it my own way on film. So there's a correlation there.

Andy Heise 21:08

I see, I see.

Kitty McNamee 21:10

And then the other thing was you know, some of my favorite work I did for hysterica is in the moment. And even if you capture it on video to have a record of it, it's never the same. It's so ephemeral, it's gone. So I thought, let me make something that is for the camera that can live on it.

Andy Heise 21:30

Oh, okay. Yeah.

Kitty McNamee 21:32

So it can be captured in the way I want to want it to be and want it to be seen, and then it lives forever. That was the other impulse.

Andy Heise 21:41

Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Well, Kitty, we've reached the point of the interview where we ask all of our interviewees the same three questions. And the first question is what advice would you give to others who wanting to become an arts entrepreneur?

Kitty McNamee 21:58

I would say Go for it. Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to fail. I've failed many times, and it's okay. So those those would be my primary words of wisdom. That's great. Be brave. It's okay to fail.

Nick Petrella 22:21

That's good. Great. What can we do to ensure the arts are more accessible and reaching the widest possible audience?

Kitty McNamee 22:31

Well, I mean, one thing is putting the arts where younger people see it, which is online, you know, uh in some version like YouTube, Instagram, you know. Also, I think another way is to be a mentor or be somebody who uh helps nurture other people's work to not just focus on yourself but focus on bringing others along with you and giving them um a platform to shine on. And then from the other side, you know, it goes back to grant writing or fundraising. Like I am not good at that aspect. I wish I was better. So it would be awesome if corporations would step up and be more proactive and supporting the that side of society a bit more. Like a company, like I don't know, like skims, like they've got tons of resources. They're using creativity to help, you know, give their product more exposure. And then it would be great if they would support the people who are creative, also.

Andy Heise 23:49

Yeah. Yeah. Lastly, what's the best artistic or entrepreneurial advice you've been given?

Kitty McNamee 24:01

Be prepared. I think that is that is key, and it's key for many reasons. One, you'll have a lot less anxiety if you're prepared. You know, you won't be on nerves and you won't be afraid. And even if you do mess up, you're like, well, I was prepared, I did my best. Like you can you can reframe and readjust. So I think be prepared is the most important thing. And also to again take a risk. Like if you have a crazy idea, like LA pops up or starting a dance company, the worst you can do is not achieve it. But if you if you never go for it, then you'll just be wondering for the rest of your life. Like, what if I'd done that? Wonder what would have happened. And you can manage, like you can manage the financial part of it, that financial risk. You can manage it by keeping it more DIY, which is what I did for both projects, both of my big, like crazy ideas. But don't don't hesitate to try them.

Nick Petrella 25:17

Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Well, Kitty, thanks so much for spending time with us today. It was great hearing your selfless and collaborative approach to the arts. You you really are helping future generations.

Kitty McNamee 25:30

Thank you for having me. It's been a wonderful Thank you, Kitty. Thank you.

Announcer 25:38

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