#383: Louis Marks & Fabian Brown (Founders of Third Way Cultural Alliance) (pt. 1 of 2)

Today we released part one of our interview with Louis Marks and Fabian Brown. They’re the co-founders of “Third Way Cultural Alliance,” a nonprofit organization dedicated to supporting intelligent contemporary music as art. 

Louis has been in the music industry for nearly 20 years and has worked in fields ranging from merchandise to licensing. He purchased Ropeadope Music Entertainment in 2005 and created a label that has released music of artists including Ramsey Lewis and Snarky Puppy. 

Fabian Brown is a multi-talented musician, entrepreneur, and community advocate hailing from the Greater Philadelphia area. With over 20 years of experience in the music industry, Fabian currently serves as the President of Ropeadope, an international independent record label.

If you're a musician, you'll enjoy hearing how Third Way is giving access to musicians and promoting music that might otherwise not be produced. https://www.twca.xyz/

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introductions

Announcer 0:18

Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast, Making Art Work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion, and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent, or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts, Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.

Andy Heise 1:00

Hi Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners. I'm Andy Heise.

Nick Petrella 1:04

And I'm Nick Petrella. Today we're speaking with Louis Marks and Fabian Brown. They're the co-founders of Third Way Cultural Alliance, a nonprofit organization dedicated to supporting intelligent contemporary music as art. Lewis has been in the music industry for nearly 20 years and has worked in fields ranging from merchandise to licensing. He purchased Robodope Music Entertainment in 2005 and created a label that has released music of artists, including Ramsey Lewis and Snarky Puppy. Fabian Brown is a multi-talented musician, entrepreneur, and community advocate hailing from the Greater Philadelphia area. With over 20 years of experience in the music industry, Fabian currently serves as the president of Ropadope, an international independent record label. We'll share Third Way's link in the show notes so you can learn more about all their activities and their impact in the music business. Guys, thanks for joining us. Amazing.

Fabian Brown 1:59

Thanks for having us, guys.

Nick Petrella 2:01

Yes, thank you.

Meeting Over A Beer In Jersey

Nick Petrella 2:03

So how did you first meet and what prompted you to work together?

Fabian Brown 2:07

I'll take this one, Lewis. I I I remember meeting Lewis at a local pub here in South Jersey. A mutual friend of ours was was DJing and uh he was doing the thing as he does. And I popped in and he introduced me to Lewis as you know the guy at Ropodope. And for me, I was like, oh man, the Robotope guy's here. You know, I was pretty excited knowing knowing the um the catalog and knowing the the power of what Ropotope was. And um, you know, we just connected and he was there with his soon-to-be wife. And um, you know, that's over over a beer we had some light conversation about about music, nothing too serious, nothing, nothing really too deep. At least that's my recollection of it, Lewis. You might you might think differently or have something to add.

Louis marks 2:52

Usually, usually when I'm out, especially when there are musicians around, uh, I'm I'm really not tooting the rope at open horn. Uh, you know, I'm not really comfortable with all of that. So yeah, so it was certainly casual.

Andy Heise 3:08

Yeah, yeah. Do you remember the DJ? I would guess we don't we don't have to.

Louis marks 3:12

I do. It was Mr. Matt Cappy.

Andy Heise 3:14

Yes.

Louis marks 3:14

Yeah. Wonderful trumpet player. And yeah.

Fabian Brown 3:17

Ah. Right, who then later on became one of the one of the artists that uh, you know, one of the records that we released. So very good. That's awesome.

Louis marks 3:24

Yeah, full circle. He learned his chops from Quest Love. Gotcha. Yeah. DJ Chops.

Andy Heise 3:31

DJ Chops, yeah, sure, sure.

Sharing Space And Learning Fast

Andy Heise 3:34

And um, and so uh can you can you walk us through the evolution of the relationship you met over drinks at a bar watching uh uh DJ um conversation? How did what how did it evolve from there?

Louis marks 3:48

Yeah, go ahead, Lewis. Um you you take it. You you you remember better than I do.

Fabian Brown 3:55

Yeah, yeah, the the the the the short the short of it is you know sometime had passed and and Lewis uh you know in in so in South Jersey, there's uh uh an area, Haddon Heights, New Jersey, where there's a lot of uh business that takes place, a lot of community activities that take place. And I uh I had been hanging out at this local cafe. Lewis comes by and he, you know, we start talking, reconnecting, and he shared that uh rope at Opa was you know in in a little growth phase and wanted to look for an area to pick and pack CDs and ship CDs. Um and there had been a vacant um uh you know place right around the corner from there. I'm like, oh man, you check out this place. I know the realtor. Fast forward, we look at the place, it's a good fit for Lewis, and uh, you know, he does he does the thing. Uh at that time in my career, I had been in education, music education for 15 years. And um, like some music educators, uh, you know, you get rifted, you know, the position just becomes something that the school can't subsidize, can't sustain. So I was in a transition period, you know, and I kind of, you know, hey Lewis, if uh if you don't mind, you know, maybe I can pay a couple bucks and we can share the rent. And, you know, I can, you know, talk to some, you know, some clients to book some gigs. And uh, you know, he was cool with it. And yeah, you know, that relationship kind of ended up me just uh, I don't know, just listening, you know, an active ear, what was going on in the music business. I had zero experience in the music business other than booking gigs for performances. And uh, you know, I was fascinated, you know. And he I said, hey man, if you need any help with anything, and you know, every now and again he would give me a task and I would take the task and I would crush the task. And that kind of kept evolving. Um, Lewis, I'm not sure if you remember this, but it was at the time our our YouTube channel was almost at 10,000 subscribers. And he's like, Well, hey, if you can figure out how to fill out this paperwork and get us qualified to participate in uh the YouTube space. So YouTube has you know like uh headquarters all over. And uh, you know, I filled out the paperwork. We got access to uh to utilize the YouTube space for creating content, and then he had asked me to, yeah, call out, call some musicians and see we can book some some musicians to record video and audio in these spaces, called some musicians and you know, to do all that. And I remember that trip we were taking to New York. Uh, you know, he asked me, he's like, look, I, you know, probably can't afford to pay you what you're worth, but you know, would you have any interest in, you know, doing some work with Ropodope? And yeah, and and for me, that was that was the the the the beginning, you know, of of um my career at the end of the year.

Louis marks 6:34

Yeah, you did you did come on at as a volunteer. Yes. And and and and in true ropotope fashion, we're thrown right into the deep end, contacting the high-level people at YouTube, orchestrating musicians, getting to a video shoot, uh, and then right into publicity with, you know, here, yeah. Email email the editor at Downbeat, see if he's interested in this album. Yeah. And Fabian said, okay. Yeah. Yeah, sure. That's a key point, I think, for people to hear is that you know, you just jumped in. Yeah.

Fabian Brown 7:04

Yeah. Yeah. Completely no, listen, you know, I I know how to pick up my horn and play, and you know, I know how to turn around and share what I've learned and and pass it on to other other people. Um, but when it came to music business, I had no business in in music business. Um, and I learned a lot, you know, working with Lewis and working with with Ropodope. Um, it was definitely a fast track in in music business for sure.

Nick Petrella 7:26

Yeah, that's awesome. That's good. And what you what you did come with informed what you know in the music business. So that's right.

Andy Heise 7:33

That's probably right.

Pivots, Failure, And Rebirth Lessons

Andy Heise 7:36

And and so, like we've we've been talking about, you've both started over in different fields at different points in in your life. Um what uh what was different about sort of this new endeavor for for you um starting out, either one of you, Lewis or Fabian?

Louis marks 7:52

I'll start because there are different history timelines here, right? So I I started in um I was in the clothing business, and back in the early 2000s, I was approached by uh Ropadope and several other uh labels and bands. Uh at that time they wanted to create uh e-commerce stores for musicians, and you literally had to build a website by yourself at that time. And we did, and we did we did a lot of that. Um it it doesn't, you know, you look at a resume and you might say, well, but we really jumped ship and went over to this area, but everything kind of led to another, you know. I was I ran a clothing business that produced a half a million tie-dye t-shirts a year, and it was exhausting. And and and we came uh you know face to face with the dominant capitalist system. Here's where the guy goes off, but the dominant system has particular power players that will control your destiny. And in the tie-dye business and manufacturing, the choice was, you know, grow or go home. Uh oh, and by the way, while you're growing, uh Bloomingdales is going to dictate your margin uh and how much money you can make, and they're gonna tell you how to pack things. So, you know, it became a really uh a moment for me, and I say a moment, it's over years, where I said, this is not what I want to be doing. How do I pivot? Ropodope walks in the door, this is a great idea. We'll do some clothing, we know how to screen print, we can build web stores, we can build a business within a business, trail one off and get the other one moving. Uh, and we did. We did, we did very well with that. And we didn't really run into so much uh with that process, you know, any particular players trying to dictate what what we did or didn't do, but the events of 2008 dictated what we could and could not do with that business. So then it was time for another pivot. And at that point, it was purchase rope adope uh and move this business into the music business and move into the music business. So that's my that's my start. Uh they're different things, they're they're they're rebirths in a way. Uh, but honestly, what I've learned the music business is the place for rebirth. Because because rebirth comes after death, and death is everywhere in in in in music and art. It's very, very uh challenging. Uh it's a it's a lesson in failure and and rebirth. So that's that's my story. Uh Fabian came on board at a time, at an opposite time. I think we had just released Velvet Portraits by Terrace Martin. Things were riding high, and Fabian I'll each take it from there.

Fabian Brown 10:49

Yeah, it was um, I mean, yeah, that was a powerful year. I think it was 2016. 2016, yeah. Velvet Portraits. Uh Chief Aswa, well, Krushin Scott Attunde Aswa had uh a release as well uh that year. Um, and for me, it was a crash course in reaching out to you know different media outlets and advocating for these artists, you know, letting them know that we have something unique, something special, we have something of high musical art, you know. Would you take a listen to it? Um so as an entry point into this publicity and marketing career that I was thrown upon, um, there was no other better albums for me personally to kind of do that with. Um, I wouldn't say that I was knocking all the doors down, but I was definitely getting the attention and building the rapport and building the respect with different uh, you know, different publications. You know, and that and that continued throughout the years, you know, right up until, you know, uh right up until uh 2020 when things kind of changed for not just the music business, but kind of changed for for everyone, uh, how they thought, how they processed, you know, um a lot of changes happened uh in those years, in that year and and years following that. Um yeah, that's talking about rebirth and death. Absolutely. Perfect.

Nick Petrella 12:12

Yeah. You know, before I get to the next question, I you were talking about merch and and t-shirts and things. I'm sure the m somebody's margins are okay. One of our kids was just at a concert on Saturday at a stadium, and I think it a t-shirt uh she came home with was $80. Which so somebody's making some money.

Louis marks 12:35

Demand pricing. Yeah. Yeah.

Nick Petrella 12:37

Demand pricing.

Louis marks 12:38

Well, there I mean, there is, you know, the the it's it's persistent in the in the that's just a reflection of the the reality in the music business where certain people have reached a certain level and can command a large audience, and they are very well favored on these streaming platforms. So when they perform live, uh And and don't get me wrong, it's an expensive proposition to perform those large shows. So the prices almost have to be higher, much higher than your local jazz uh or other type of merge. But uh they do s kind of suck up the consumers' uh uh pocket money.

Andy Heise 13:19

Yeah.

Third Way’s Answer To Streaming Math

Nick Petrella 13:20

Yep. Well, let's uh let's talk about Third Way. So uh can you describe Third Way's business model and why musicians would want to partner with Third Way?

Louis marks 13:30

Sure. Uh Third Way really I wouldn't call it a business model. So Third Way grows, it's it's yet another uh rebirth and transition. Uh it is uh a nonprofit organization designed to uh address the realities of the music business. So I'll I'll give some examples. So you take an artist, um I I won't put any names to it, but I think you can look on our roster and figure out who they are. Um someone decides to make an album. They've got great concept, they've been through school, they they've been playing live, they know what they're doing, they're good at composition, and they have some choices, right? They can go to a record label uh and get an advance, which is not dissimilar than going to the bank and getting a loan, uh, except that the rates are much higher. Um but there's another factor, right? So the record label number one, are they overwhelmed and they may or may not uh sign the person and give them an advance. Uh I'm talking about a major record label. Um or they may say, yes, but we need you to alter the music. We need we need something a little bit snappier, we need to cut it down in some in length. We you know, you can't you can't do this and you can't do that. And you certainly can't say some of the things you're saying politically, whatever, whatever the reason. So there are restraints there, right? So then their choice is to go and make it by themselves, uh, or to borrow money from friends and family, or go to the bank, right? So they may spend 5,000, they may spend 25,000. Uh when they release that record into this this changing ecosystem, the streaming ecosystem, you're basically, you know, it's the it's the it's the other side of the long tail. It's gonna take them years to recoup that investment, if they recoup at all. If right? But even if they're very successful uh or moderately successful with the art that they've created, it may take four or five years to return that 25,000 and everything else that was invested, right? Now, does that mean that they don't make another record for five years? In fact, it does, right? It's not possible. They face the same choices if they want to make record too. No matter how creative they are, no matter how much art they have uh at their fingertips or in their mind, they they have to wait. So to address that problem, Ropodope has tried all kinds of wonderful things from subsidizing to pre-sales of vinyl to exclusivity to um uh cryptocurrency to metaverse meeting, whatever. We've tried everything over the years to try to resolve this issue. And so Third Way was born as uh a permanent solution to that problem. And the idea is very simple use the model that fine art uses, uh, sometimes photography, sculpture, um, and find uh donors who are willing to subsidize this art. Uh and the idea is simple, you a donor pays for the album to be created, and the artist does not have to recoup that money. Uh and the donor gets a tax break to do that. So third third way's model is is that is to find the people, I mean it's twofold. You find the people who are willing to subsidize art, uh, move the art out of the commercial business, which devalues it, right? Uh, and at some point elevate in the public's mind what the value of the art is. But the beauty is that we now have artists uh who have decided to release with Ropadope, who have been subsidized by Third Way, uh who are recouped on day one. So the first album they sell, they actually earn money.

Nick Petrella 17:23

Yeah. And then just just so I understand it, the donors, they they're done. They don't get any royalty or anything.

Louis marks 17:32

No, it's pure. They're donors. It's a pure tax deduction uh write-off. And they're out there. Uh we need more. We we need we need a lot more. Uh and ultimately we'll go, you know, to the public for smaller donations. But at present, we're networking to try to find the the kind of people. And I will say they're around. It may be the person who decided to ha who chose not to have a career in music and go to Wall Street and did very well, and is saying, uh look, I I value this. Um we just know that as long as we're approaching them through Spotify or a streaming service, we're we're we are never going to get the value that is needed to sustain the art.

Nick Petrella 18:15

Right. And sorry, but before we uh we go on, I just have one more follow-up question. So if Andy and I wanted to donate. Yes. Do we find specific artists or is there could you also do a general fund where it's unrestricted?

Louis marks 18:34

100%. Yeah, you can go you can go to uh TWCA.xyz and you can choose either uh the general fund or you can contact us for specific artists if there's someone you have in mind. Uh we also have opportunities listed on the website. So right now Chief Adua and several others are looking to have funding for their next records.

Andy Heise 18:56

Yep, great.

Finding Donors Who Value New Music

Andy Heise 18:57

I'm just I'm curious, you know, you can you said those people are out there. What is the profile? I mean, you mentioned the one I went to music school, but actually wound up on Wall Street and had some success or whatever. Are is that the common profile, or what are you seeing with with the people that that want to support this type of uh uh artistic endeavor?

Louis marks 19:15

I I think it's I think it's across the board. There's so many variables we found, right? So it might be uh a specific family foundation, it might be a particular individual. Um there the it might be uh a granting organization, it might be the European Union uh who support uh artists being out. There are many, many places have public Canada, et cetera, outside the US, uh that that have specific programs that will support independent musicians. And I and when I say it's really important, if you don't mind me going digressing a little bit here. Please. Um we talk about fine art and we talk about that. So there's some pillars of understanding. There's the idea that uh, you know, Beethoven up to up to Duke Ellington, those are those are that's fine art.

Andy Heise 20:11

Yeah.

Louis marks 20:11

And then there's the perception that um Sean Martin's album or the snarky puppy album is not fine art, it's commercial, right? Well, over through the course of history, it's always been like this. No one accepted Impressionism. One guy paid Renoir's rent, and that's how the collection was built, right? Uh and so we're in that space where we're talking to people who get contemporary art, who think that the music of today is very valuable and will appreciate in value over time, and we're trying to make sure that it gets recorded and not lost in uh a TikTok streaming ecosystem, right? Um, so that makes it just about anyone who can understand it. Yeah. Right? People pay more to go to the museum than they do to listen to an album, right? So they do recognize the value of art. We just need to elevate the contemporary. And I think it's I think it's just about anyone.

Andy Heise 21:16

Well, I think it's it's fascinating. Because to your point, typically we think about this sort of patronage type of model when we think about supporting classical musician. Classical music. You know, that's but why not contemporary music, just like as you've said, with contemporary visual artists and that sort of thing. So uh, you know, I it's it's it's seems it's novel to me uh having this mechanism for um people to support contemporary uh music. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Fabian Brown 21:43

Yeah, well it's it's really building infrastructure, if you think about it, right? You know, it's about the preservation of contemporary art and contemporary music, it's about the the documentation and allowing the artist to have artistic freedom, you know, in in that endeavor. You know, it's really a a shift in mindset. About how uh art can be uh curated and how it can be supported, in my opinion. Yeah. Totally.

Nick Petrella 22:07

So it's it's almost like full circle. I mean, really, at some point everything was popular music, right? Right. I mean, if you go back. But then, you know, we talk about the patronage, because that's it was what government, princes, church, that's who used to support. But this, in a way, is kind of the gateway because you're getting the patronage, it sounds like when those strings attached, but then you can also act as an entrepreneur after that.

Louis marks 22:34

So 100 percent. It's not restricted, it's not restricted at all. I mean, we do have some, you know, some check checks and balances in place. You know, our website states, you know, cultural and social importance. Right. Uh if someone comes up and it really doesn't matter how talented they are, if their overarching goal is to become a pop star, we might question whether that's the proper use of uh of philanthropy. However, the way it's set up is that we are focusing and rope it open is the same way. We focus on albums, not on artists and careers, we focus on albums. So it it's if you listen to the album and it is amazing, and it and it will be around if you believe that it will be around for a long time and impact people 10, 20, 30, 40 years from now, it really doesn't matter whether the person becomes a pop star. That's right, right? Yeah, yeah. It's it's important to preserve that art.

Andy Heise 23:34

Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's the body of work versus what's you know the the flavor of the day sort of thing, like is is what you're talking about.

Louis marks 23:42

Yeah, I'll throw a side example out there right now. Um there's a Fabian's gonna laugh on this one. I can't stop talking about this band, but you take a band like Kneecap in in Ireland, and yeah, it's gonna blow up. There's there's no doubt this band is gonna is is is on their way to becoming huge. However, it's real. Yeah, it comes out of a social uh system and it talks about politics, uh, but it's also pop music in a way. Yeah. So both both can be there.

Andy Heise 24:17

Well, and that's that's this is exactly my next question is like when if you know if when that tension arises, the the sort of the commercial opportunity versus the um the more mission-driven piece, you know, how do we how do you resolve or think about those those tensions that that can arise when you're trying to balance both of both of those things?

Mission, Money, And Escaping Platforms

Fabian Brown 24:39

Well, it's an interesting question, you know, from a balance sheet perspective, right? You know, you have to keep the business operating and you have to keep the lights on and you have to pay the staff and all of the things that, you know, is needed to operate a business. Um, but somehow, some way there seems to be this higher calling, this higher purpose. Uh, there seems to be this thing that sits on top of that. And I think if we focus on that higher calling, you know, um uh advocating for art, advocating for what is what the artist is speaking towards and connecting them with the right people, not only to finance the project, but then what happens after that, right? What happens after the project is created, the recording is documented, the photos, the the you know, the the bios are in all the things. Where do we go next? Do we just go right back to Spotify to get point zero zero whatever it is? Yeah, you know, that's interesting. And that and that became the next problem in Third Way's iteration just to solve, right? Why why do all this work and and and really get uh the balance sheet of the artist to to to to launch and to be cash flow positive and then just feed it right into the same into the same system, right? Um I I don't think I don't think I knew that coming into this project. Lewis, maybe, maybe you you saw that coming, but it it came pretty it came pretty quickly. Um, you know, so we again started to become a little bit creative and started to think about well who where can we take this project and who would appreciate it and and see it as high value art, right? Um so then you know I put my publicity hat back on and started making phone calls and sending emails to museums and cultural centers and you know, this does any anywhere where we thought uh art already existed and people already saw it as high value.

Andy Heise 26:45

Yeah.

Fabian Brown 26:45

And uh people started returning the phone calls and started returning the returning the emails. And um, you know, that's the phase that currently third way is that we are we are currently looking at different opportunities in different areas where we can present this this fine this fine work to counteract that commercial drive that is just there. And maybe Lewis, you can add I want to add to that.

Louis marks 27:11

Uh and it's evolving as we speak, and and and my thinking is evolving right in in the context of this of this uh discussion. Um arts and entrepreneurship, right? So we are not um we are not at any point um rejecting the concept of selling music. Sure. Uh or paying artists for their time or their work. Uh we are saying that it is that it has become too transactional. And we are saying that there's a really good reason why it's become so transactional, is because certain people who build certain platforms are extracting value at too high a rate. Right? So they're they're they're and don't even, you know, we can start into the whole AI conversation, but it's basically a value extraction and a power play. Uh and so it's called third way for a reason. It's, you know, we're not saying we want to be a traditional nonprofit or an art museum. We're not saying, and we're definitely not saying that we want to be involved in this uh this mechanism of streaming and AI development. We're saying we want a new way, a third way to blend these and restore the value of music in the and connect with those fans, connect with those listeners. And the reason that I thought that was important to say right now is this thinking about arts and entrepreneurship. I think any young entrepreneur, there there are a couple of paths, you know. You can follow the way everything's going, and it has become a sort of a what's the old expression, the dog eat dog world, right? We always use that. But now you're really looking at a situation where it's excessively competitive, and it's very rare that a startup or small guy wins in the way that they intended.

Andy Heise 29:14

Right.

Louis marks 29:14

There are compromises along the way. So, you know, that's that's kind of that that's that's why third way, and that's where we are right now.

Nick Petrella 29:22

So

Nonprofit Rules And Surprise Obstacles

Nick Petrella 29:23

let's switch gears now and talk about money, matching donors with artists, right? So that's a that's probably a big thing, I would imagine, you spend a lot of time on. And also imagine there are many hurdles you had to cross just to make the attorneys happy when you're giving away money, collecting money. Which of those hurdles did you expect and which did you not expect or not foresee?

Louis marks 29:50

We uh were were guided by uh Marty Kahn, uh a veteran of the music business who uh has advocated for nonprofits for musicians for 25, 30 years. Um and he guided us through the process of creating a nonprofit. Uh and that was a lot easier than we expected. Um the guidelines and rules and transparency uh that are required of a nonprofit were not unexpected, but a little bit surprising.

Andy Heise 30:27

Yeah.

Louis marks 30:28

Um and then I think the most unexpected thing was that we live in the United States, which is 50 states. Uh and each state attorney general's office has a different rule for exactly how you're supposed to conduct business. So you'll notice on our website that we have a list of states that we are approved in. I see. And we're not asking for people outside. And so and and another little surprising thing, and Fabian, you may want to comment on this as well. The number of businesses that are also preying on nonprofits to sell them services is a little surprising to me. And their prices are very high. Hmm.

Fabian Brown 31:08

Yeah. Surprisingly all in tech, Lewis.

Louis marks 31:10

Uh unsurprisingly, yeah.

Fabian Brown 31:13

Unsurprisingly all in tech. Um, you know, uh, again, we we talked about this a little bit. You know, it takes it takes things to to run and operate a business. It takes tools, it takes infrastructure, it takes software. Um, and there's a little of naivety uh that I think we have as newer uh nonprofit businesses, and there's um some shiny objects out there that you know sometimes seem to be a good fit. Uh and it is a good fit, but I think there's different seasons, there's different levels that nonprofits all come to. And I think we're at the, you know, at the phase one, if you will. Um, so sometimes the surprise can be speaking with people, tech people that say, hey, look, you need this tool to operate your nonprofit to be able to connect with donors and connect with philanthropists, and it's awesome, and it's only this much money a year. And like, you know, we get the the the the big show, and then we're like, okay, cool, then we're on board, then we open up the hood and we're like, what the hell is this? Like, I don't do I need this, I don't really need this, right? And I don't need this, maybe I need this like in five years. I don't need this now. And then they're trying to to to un undo the uh agreement and arrangements that you have. It's it's yeah, yeah. There are some there are some uh you know prey and some predators out there in in the nonprofit space as well. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

How Third Way Works With Ropadope

Andy Heise 32:40

Is there a formal relationship between Ropodope and and um Third Way? Or you know, what did the creation of Third Way then allow you to do that maybe Ropodope wasn't able to do?

Louis marks 32:51

There is a formal relationship. Robotope has agreed to release any album that Third Way wants to release on the label on Ropodope, assuming that the artist uh and donor choose that. Uh other than that, there is no relationship. What it's allowed uh Robotope to do is to uh say yes to records that went in the normal course of business they might not have been able to say yes to the right.

Andy Heise 33:19

Yeah, take a take a little risk, risk, take a little risk for uh on a specific artist or something.

Louis marks 33:24

A lot of risk, yeah.

Nick Petrella 33:27

Right.

Promotion That Still Works Today

Nick Petrella 33:28

As you said earlier, pop musicians have the biggest platforms to get their message out. What are effective vehicles that you've seen that jazz and classical musicians have used to promote their music?

Louis marks 33:42

I think it's changing. We've been through a cycle. Uh Favian's on the front end of this, so but I'll just quickly comment. You know years ago, Facebook was good and then Facebook was not good. Social media was good, and then social media was not good. I think I posted on the website last year that social media is dead. Um but there's a new generation, things are changing. So, you know, I posted some shorts on YouTube uh against my better judgment or previously uh previous judgment uh over the weekend, and we did it phenomenally well uh at getting new at getting new listeners. So, you know, and and and baby I don't want you to speak about publicity because you know there was a time where you thought that downbeat would in the future they may not matter, but now we live in a world where people need to find truth.

Fabian Brown 34:32

Yeah, yeah. I I I think we are in a time where there's a lot of uh misinformation. I think we're in a time where I'll put it this way nothing will ever be stronger than being in the room, and nothing will ever be stronger than building real relationship and real rapport with people and having the purest of intentions. Um, again, I didn't go to school for publicity or for marketing or any of these things. But here's one thing that I did learn or that I do know is that when you speak with the person, just be genuine and authentic, and things sometimes work out. There's no reason to fluff it, there's no reason to you know inflate it. Um, hey, this is what I have based on my understanding of your media outlet, based on what I've read or what I've listened to. I feel that what I have is in alignment with what you're already doing. Would you happen to take a minute or two to cue this album up? I know your inbox is crazy, but I think you'll hear what I hear. And again, it's it doesn't always sound like that, it doesn't always come off like that, but yeah, that's the intention. Like I just I just take the time to really understand the re the the recipient and what their goals are, what their desires are. And do I have something that would resonate with them? Yes or no? If it's no, I'll just move on. If it's yes, and then sometimes if it's if it's a no, hey, listen, I know this is not a really good fit for you. Do you have any colleagues that would would be interested in this, right? So it's it's nothing fancy, it's nothing sexy, it's it's simply just being a good human being and then being consistent with it. Yeah, um, yes, there's tools like social media, and and I will also say capturing the attention of the the younger generation is as equally as important as capturing, you know, people our our age. Um I feel that our music literally leans to this cross-generational approach. We have artists that are digging back into the masters and and using that vocabulary to create what they've what they're putting out today, right? And I think the younger generation really they enjoy seeing that lineage, they really enjoy seeing that through line all the way. So for for me, from for my chair, from a marketing or promotion perspective, just knowing the intended audience and and being respectful to understand before trying to be understood. And and that's the best way that I can I could phrase

Closing Thoughts And Subscribe

Fabian Brown 37:10

that.

Announcer 37:10

Yeah, well put. Thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please subscribe. Visit arts entrepreneurship podcast.com to learn more about our guest and how you can help support artists, the arts, and this podcast.