#384: Louis Marks & Fabian Brown (Founders of Third Way Cultural Alliance) (pt. 2 of 2)

This week one the podcast is part two of our interview with Louis Marks and Fabian Brown. They’re the co-founders of “Third Way Cultural Alliance,” a nonprofit organization dedicated to supporting intelligent contemporary music as art. 

Louis has been in the music industry for nearly 20 years and has worked in fields ranging from merchandise to licensing. He purchased Ropeadope Music Entertainment in 2005 and created a label that has released music of artists including Ramsey Lewis and Snarky Puppy. 

Fabian Brown is a multi-talented musician, entrepreneur, and community advocate hailing from the Greater Philadelphia area. With over 20 years of experience in the music industry, Fabian currently serves as the President of Ropeadope, an international independent record label.

If you're a musician, you'll enjoy hearing how Third Way is giving access to musicians and promoting music that might otherwise not be produced. https://www.twca.xyz/

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introductions

Announcer 0:18

Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast, Making Art Work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion, and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent, or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts, Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.

Andy Heise 1:00

Hi Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners. I'm Andy Heise.

Nick Petrella 1:04

And I'm Nick Petrella. Today we're speaking with Louis Marks and Fabian Brown. They're the co-founders of Third Way Cultural Alliance, a nonprofit organization dedicated to supporting intelligent contemporary music as art. Louis has been in the music industry for nearly 20 years and has worked in fields ranging from merchandise to licensing. He purchased Robodope Music Entertainment in 2005 and created a label that has released music of artists, including Ramsey Lewis and Snarky Puppy. Fabian Brown is a multi-talented musician, entrepreneur, and community advocate hailing from the Greater Philadelphia area. With over 20 years of experience in the music industry, Fabian currently serves as the president of Ropadope, an international independent record label. We'll share Third Way's link in the show notes. You can learn more about all their activities and their impact in the music business. Guys, thanks for joining us.

Fabian Brown 1:58

Amazing. Thanks for having us, guys.

Authenticity Vs Social Media Branding

Andy Heise 2:01

Yes, thank you. I love what you said about the authenticity piece. And like I I feel like we're, you know, this is probably again another discussion for another time, but like buying into what people see on social media, which is, you know, just uh it's a it's a performance of of people's lives, not necessarily a direct representation of it, and how things actually still happen with people in a room having conversations. Um and again, the the authenticity part of that is is so so key, I think. And I think it's a I think it's a mystery. Like for a lot of our listeners who are emerging artists or new arts entrepreneurs or whatever, um, I think there is a little bit of mystery to that because they're like, do I spend time in the room with people or do I spend time curating this sort of image of myself uh out into the world?

Fabian Brown 2:47

Yeah, you know, the image of herself, you know, I guess we could say that as as branding in a sense, right? Um it's it's an it's important, right? Uh just as important as it is getting into the room and just shaking hands and and meeting the meeting the people. Um, I don't think uh, you know, I toggle between, you know, spending all this time online and and getting the mass exposure. And, you know, we we did we didn't have this 20, 25 years ago where we could hit a button and then all of a sudden we're global, right? It used to cost tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands to be able to have that access through like TV broadcasts. You know, now we're at the age we pick up our mobile device and and here we are. We have we have that access. It's a it's a tool. But like any tool, like a hammer, man, you could build a mansion or you could, you know, beat somebody up pretty bad with that hammer, right? So please be careful. Please be careful with the tool that you that you are using and um and use it and use it wisely. Um I would I would always encourage encourage an artist to, yes, um, building a presence online and building a brand line is important, building a list, have actually owning your list, actually um having the direct contact of your fans and not just having the context of your fans. Can you actually talk to them? Can you actually just don't just don't sell them on the next project that you have? Have a conversation, let them know what you're up to, let you know what you're doing, invite them into your world, let them be a part of the creative process. What does that look like? What are the possibilities? You know, so owning your list is always going to be something that you want to be able to do. You know, having consistency across all the platforms that you choose to be on is going to be absolutely important. And then getting from behind your desk and going out into the real world and actually meeting people and connecting with people, connecting with your peers. Um that none of that stuff will ever go obsolete. That will always remain.

Louis Marks 4:40

Right.

Andy Heise 4:42

And

Failure, Data, And When To Pivot

Andy Heise 4:43

so what you've you've you've been talking about, uh Lewis, you mentioned it earlier, Fabian. You you just you were just talking about it, but trying trying different things. You're always you're always experimenting trying different things. How do you um how do you decide when to like keep pushing through something when it doesn't seem to be getting traction versus just like okay, let's try something else. Let's move on.

Louis Marks 5:11

I mean, you know, I said it earlier, like I mean, entrepreneurship is is is is a is a lesson in failure, right? Um that's basically how you find out whether or not your idea was any good. Um when is the right time to jump? Or how do you push through that, you know, like yeah, you know, as as in preparing for this and thinking about this this interview, I was thinking like, you know, what is what is entrepreneurship and what what would I have to say to people? And it's like you really have to remind yourself that you're not failing as often as you possibly can. Right. I mean, if you stay in your head, uh, which I do quite often, it can be extr excruciating. It can be really debilitating to be like, I'm not where I want to be, I'm not where I want to be, I'm not where I want to be, because entrepreneurship is trying to get to somewhere where you're not, right? Trying to build something. And and um I I yeah, I'm maybe I'm not the right person to ask this question um because I've been in several businesses, none of they've all done well, and I'm proud of the things that they've accomplished uh when I let myself be proud of them. Um but none of none of it was ever, you know, none of it has been wildly successful, right? Financially. Um but my feeling is stay longer than you think you should. Uh keep going. Uh but uh be careful of suspending reality. Right. So if there's a reality uh that you're ignoring, ask yourself that question. Am I ignoring something that's an actual fact that can't be changed here? Uh and and that's you know, that's kind of why we're here. The third way is like, okay, you know, I I woke up one day and said, like, I'm proud of what I built, but I am never going to go out and sign a popular artist because I need to make money. That's a that's a fact. There's not something that's in me, that's not something I want to do. So stop complaining about the revenue and figure out another way to find the revenue. So I s so I'm staying the course, but I'm pivoting. But I say to answer it briefly, I'll say it again. Stay longer than you think you should. Don't don't don't give up. Yeah, people.

Fabian Brown 7:44

I want to I want to add a little to that, you know, from from my point of view, yeah, you know, entrepreneurship, it's solving problems, essentially, right? All we're all we're really doing is we're getting up every day and there's a problem in front of us. And what's the the quickest way or the best way to solve solve said problem? And and sometimes we know we're solving the problem. Sometimes we get feedback, sometimes we have the data to you know substantiate whether we're we're walking the right path or we're not, right? So the the when do we tap out? You know, I I tend to be the nuts and bolts, you know, thinker, right? Okay, well, what's the information telling me, right? Is the information, is it, you know, I I I go back and forth between this like intuition and this gut feeling, right? And then like the the facts and the and the and the data. And it's really a tough line to to balance all the time if I'm being completely honest, right? I like to be driven by my gut feeling, I like to be driven by my intuition. And sometimes the freaking data will tell me, dude, what are you doing right now? Yeah, like like stop, stop doing this. Or the data tells me, like, hey, man, you're you're kind of on the right track. You know, you just gotta kind of you know hold out a little bit longer. Um, and and that's really why I I like working with Lewis, right? We we we had the same core, we have beliefs, right? And and any entrepreneur, we have our beliefs. We're driven by our our core belief and what we want to do, what we want to accomplish, right? And we're all smart enough on this call right now where we know there's always more than one way to accomplish a goal. There's always more than one path. Sometimes we take the scenic route and it's beautiful. This is gonna take us a little bit longer to get there, right? And sometimes we don't have time for this. We gotta, we gotta, we gotta go down the go down the turnpike. We gotta we gotta hit it there, we got an hour to be there, right? Yeah, yeah. So again, it's just uh it's a fun ride of trying to solve problems and and and hopefully, you know, not losing the shirt while while we're trying to get there. And that's that's the exciting part.

Merch That People Actually Wear

Nick Petrella 9:44

That's great. So we've never had anyone on who sold merch, right, with your experience. So I just thought I'd take the opportunity to ask this question for bands and other artists who who want to sell merchandise. What are some things musicians or other artists should consider when designing or selecting merchandise to have more value for their dollar, whether it's quantity breaks, QR codes to come find people, things like that. What do you think?

Louis Marks 10:13

I love this question. It was when I when I read the list, it was like I'm I, you know, because it's it's I'm really passionate about it, right? And people used to uh make fun of me back in the day when when I was in the the clothing business uh fully um, you know, how how how passionate I was about it. But here's the line that I'd always give, and I want people to understand it. So what you know, what's the first thing you do when you decide to you're gonna go out of the house in the morning, right? You're gonna pick something to wear, right? And you're basically going through a mental and a spiritual process of deciding how you want to be received in the world. Uh you're saying, I I, you know, it's it's it's the real version of posting and waiting for likes, right? Um, you know, it's it's it's even above music uh as far as which band you listen to, right? Um so it's really important for anyone to remember, you know, you're putting your band name on a t-shirt or you're trying to sell merchandise, whatever it is, sell something that people can wear, that they will wear, and that they will feel good about themselves in. And they may even draw some compliments, right? So if your band merch sits in a drawer, you haven't achieved anything except the one sale, right? If your band merch is all over the place, I've walked down the street in cities all over the world with a rope-dope t-shirt on, and people just point and go, hmm, you know, thumbs up, cool, or just nod, and boy, do I feel good when that happens. You know, same thing with a brand like Adidas. You can get a really cool pair of Adidas, and so you know that that's the that's the primary. That's you know, everything from there, if you stay true to that, you're you're gonna be in good shape. Um uh QR codes and getting back to the music, I I don't think that's as quick and as the easy, you know, I don't think it's a really a discovery thing. Um I think what you're discovering is cool. Like if you see a person that you think is cool and they're wearing that t-shirt of that band, you're not gonna forget. It's the impression is gonna be there. You don't have to immediately click and go and buy the t-shirt. Um, obviously, your online presence needs to be discoverable. Yeah. When someone comes to AI and and check your AI version of yourself, whatever Gemini or whoever is, however they're describing you, because that that's important, whatever the search results are going to be, the new SEO or whatever that that is, right? Um but yeah, make it look cool. Uh and in the process of design, uh take things away. Don't add anything. When you're when you're doing graphic design, if you have a band logo, you have your own, even your own name in whatever font you choose, take things away. Make it simpler, make it there's a it's a complex, fancy world out there, and adding extra design elements is uh doesn't make you stand out. It just makes you look like everybody else that's trying really hard to create something fancy. So those are my physical thoughts on that.

Andy Heise 13:19

I know I always when I always when I wear a band t-shirt, you know, I'm always in the back of my mind, I'm like, you know, shopping at Aldi and like, oh, some other dad rock fan comes in, you know, they're like, oh, nice shirt or something. You know, playing that scenario out in my head, you know. And I think I think it's ex it's so what you said. It's like yeah, this is who you're presenting to the world when you leave the house. Yeah.

Louis Marks 13:43

100%. T-shirts are fashion.

Andy Heise 13:45

Yeah.

Louis Marks 13:46

They are the contemporary version of fashion as we were speaking earlier about music and Beethoven, right? Uh if they're done right. Right. Elevate them.

Andy Heise 13:56

Yeah.

Building Nonprofits With Real Partners

Andy Heise 13:57

Um, Faven, you had experience as a co-founder of a nonprofit before. I think I read that on your on your bio on the website. Um, what can you uh what was that experience like and how did that inform the experience of of uh helping uh with Third Way?

Fabian Brown 14:12

Yeah, what is that experience like? Um it's a little bit different than the experience that I have here with with Lewis, uh, but there's a lot of similarities as well, too. Um what I would take away from that experience and and kind of look what's happening with Third Way is um there is a true essence of again, attention, intention, and just um doing things with the utmost uh again, hold holding the the thing higher than any individual in the room. Um, you know, my other nonprofits are a little bit different. It's a community-based organization where we, you know, essentially uplift downtown business districts by injecting different types of events, um, different types of gatherings, uh, whether it be a local farmers market where we're hosting um, you know, farmers and different purveyors, um, you know, uh, and putting them in a venue where people can can shop and browse for their needs. Uh that's on one side, and then the other side is, you know, bigger music festivals and beer festivals and wine festivals. Again, all community driven with the purpose of this getting the community to come and engage and interact with different types of programming to bolster that downtown district, right? Yeah, yeah. Uh for for me, those experienced in Third Way, what keeps coming up is what we built with that other organization is a platform. We built a brand. We built something that is recognizable. We built something that when we put a program or community event together, people are coming because they know that the organization is going to have the best intention for the community program. The same thing that we've done with Ropotope and the same thing that we'll continue to do with with Third Way. You know, Third Way is in the beginning stages of having that brand, that brand recognition, you know, being coupled with Ropotope is definitely not a bad, a bad thing. But I would say my experience with with the other organization is um, you know, team and having good infrastructure of good people helping it, because if it was just myself or just Lewis, nothing will, you know, things can't get done. We need we need good people around us, um, community partners. Um, you know, we call them ambassadors at third way, people that also see our vision and that can also, you know, hey, look at what these guys are doing. People with credibility in their own work and their own space that recognize third way as something that other people should know about. So we're we're I've taken those lessons from my other organization. And I don't want to say copy and paste it here in third way, but you know, essentially it's it's the it's the basics, man. It's the basics. Surround yourself with with good people doing good things, right? Making making sure that there's alignment there in the things that everyone is doing, and how can we collaborate with one another, you know, to up, you know, the tide lifts all ships. How can we do this in in collaboration in harmony so that we can get to the places that we want to go?

Nick Petrella 17:09

Yeah. You applied what you learned to a new venture. That's it.

Fabian Brown 17:15

That's it. And I'm still learning, by the way, every single day. Oh, yes.

Nick Petrella 17:20

Of course. So this is something I I want to get both your takes

Signing With A Label And Expectations

Nick Petrella 17:24

on. Is it easier to sign with a label now? And what should musicians consider when signing?

Louis Marks 17:34

Uh now as compared to at any time in the past. Uh I mean I can speak for Rope and Open. I can probably, you know, that might extend to some of the other independent labels uh that are at the same level. I won't say similar. Uh because I don't think anything's really similar. Um I think it's harder now. Oh I think that if you're talking about major labels, um I I would say harder. Uh for for us also harder. So there are two different reasons for that. One, there's just more, there's more music creation happening, right? And uh more people are coming up playing music, more people have bands. Uh uh, you know, at least it seems that way to me over the 20-year arc. I'm getting I'm getting just constant submissions. Um I think for major labels, it's uh also uh they're signing less, uh maybe not less, but they're gone, they've got a lot of data at their at their fingertips. So it's not like they listen to the demo tape and go, oh, this is good. Come on in and talk to us. Like before they even t push play, they've already got all the data on you that they need from your Spotify and everywhere else, and they can rule you out really quickly. And in fact, I would say that independence, I would that I do that I might do that as well. Um I'll give it, I'll give an example. If it you know, one of the rules that rope it up is is is it has to sound unique and different, right? Um after Snarky Puppy won a Grammy, there were dozens of things in my inbox that sounded very much like Snarky Puppy. So when they say, hey, we're a jazz fusion band, uh I'll go to their social, I don't see any people, I I don't necessarily listen to that particular thing. So I I think it's I think it's harder to get attention.

Nick Petrella 19:41

Yeah.

Louis Marks 19:42

Now the process and the and the and the contract itself and the process of onboarding, that's a lot easier.

Nick Petrella 19:49

I mean, because bands or individuals, they may be looking at you to help promote them, and empathetically, when you're looking at them, you want something that you can already that has wind at its back. Yeah, right.

Louis Marks 20:05

Well that the one you I think typically that's what a label would do. Yeah, absolutely. And it's a financial decision and wind and traction. Um but we we have a variety of decisions at at at Robinope. There are a couple of people that where you just say, yeah, that's wind and traction, but also respect. Like when Eddie Palmieri called, it was like, nope, nope, yes. You know, absolutely yes, you know. Um, and you know, someone else might have been a little bit different, might have been like this would be really good for the label, and this would give us some some traction. Um, but mostly we're just thinking about our fans uh and what would they expect from Rope It Up? And if it's something unexpected, that's even better. Because that's what they would expect from us. I would love to release a punk rock record tomorrow.

Fabian Brown 21:02

Yeah.

Louis Marks 21:03

What do you think, Fabian?

Fabian Brown 21:04

I think everything, I agree with everything that Lewis says. You know, if I've if I'm putting my uh if I'm putting the other hat on, if I'm putting on the hat of a musician or an artist or a band, you know, they're inundated with options these days, right? Some people feel confident that they don't need a uh an entity, a label to, you know, bolster their career. So they'll take on the responsibilities, the administration, the filing, all the business things on the on themselves, and they will effectively do what you're saying. They will build that traction. They will bend, they will build the wind beneath their wings, right? And then get to a point and say, this sucks. I don't want to do the administrative part of this. I just want to write songs, or I just want to get on stage and perform, you know. So then it comes to the okay, we're back to the place that we were trying to avoid in the first place, and let's talk to uh you know, an organization, a company to to do the things that we don't want to do.

Louis Marks 21:56

But that's the right time, yeah. But that's the right time. Then you're simply outsourcing the work rather than hoping that a label is going to change your fortune.

Nick Petrella 22:07

So then in summary, for people listening, and you tell me if this is a decent summary, uh you should have some success or s at least a substantial or a moderate following that's going to help carry and reduce the risk of a label signing you and basically losing money and resources.

Louis Marks 22:32

Yes. I mean I want to say before that be be a be a decent person to work with. That's above everything else, right? And people can read that. They can read that in your emails, they can read that in your communication. Nobody's gonna take a chance and a risk if it's going to end up with friction and and and problems, right? And every time we do, uh we regret it. But after that, um it's not necessarily numbers, it's connection with your fans. And you can tell these things if you look. If I go to a bandcamp page um and I see comments, I could tell that the fans are passionate. I don't care if there's only 10. But if I see a hundred or a thousand and nobody said a word, then I'm what's the you know, I mean, sure, it'll sell it'll sell more copies. It's a question of whether your fans and you are connected and whether they're passionate about your music. That would be the that would be prior to how many you have. Yeah.

Fabian Brown 23:31

Yeah. I'll I'll just I'll just quickly add Dick to what you're saying, uh having even keeled expectations on all on and on all sides, right? Sometimes um it's easy for an artist to have, oh man, I don't want to say delusions of grandeur. Um but let's go with that but uh irrational, irrational. Yeah, I mean, because it's and it's not their fault. It's not oh my gosh, it's it's it's we're we're inundated. We're inundated and we're tricked, and we're we're we're um coerced into this like belief that okay, if I do X, Y, and Z, then all these things are going to happen, right? So just having a great, clear understanding of your expectations and then communing communicating that effectively to everyone that's involved. That's that's really the starting ground of any healthy relationship.

Andy Heise 24:20

Yeah.

Louis Marks 24:22

I like to call that uh climbing tails ladder.

Fabian Brown 24:24

Oh, yeah, that's right. It's a climbing tails ladder.

Louis Marks 24:27

Very good. No one gets to the bottom, no one even gets to the bottom ladder.

Andy Heise 24:30

That's a tall ladder, yeah. It is, it is. Well, and and Lewis, you touched on this, but that my next question was around that. Like when you're when you're looking at artists like musical ability and you know having something to say and uniqueness aside, you know, what are you looking for in working with with a partner? And and Vavian, please feel please feel free to jump in on that too.

Louis Marks 24:56

Yeah, yeah. I mean the the the silent thing, and I I'm I'm the one that's gonna say it because no nobody else really tells you, uh, you you gotta be reasonable to work with. Like I have to be, I have to know if we if we're not gonna go and try and sell as many records and sell out as quickly as possible, we're gonna be working together. I I need assurances that the relationship is going to be a reasonable relationship. If it's an unreasonable relationship and we have and we fight, I'm going home. I'm out. I don't need you to do that. I don't want to do that. Yeah, it's not worth whatever money we're not gonna make. Um so you know. Um and uh, you know, we talk about this m uh quite quite a bit recently, and and part of the reason that we talk about it is because we recently reconnected with the founder of the Ropadope clothing lines, and he's been tracking. We didn't know, we haven't been in touch for a while, we didn't know he's been tracking the releases, you know, and he's like, you know, it doesn't matter whether it's the neurodivergent kid from Asheville or Eddie Palmieri or Terrace Martin, every single person is their authentic authentic self and on on the label, and that's you know, it's something that I I would say that every single record we've ever released, the artist did this because not because they chose a career in music, but because it's essential for them to express themselves through music. So that's kind of what we're looking for. I don't think that's what all atheists are looking for, but that's this that's the next most important thing for me.

Fabian Brown 26:38

Yeah. Uh people first. That's the only thing I would say to to summarize what Lewis said. It's it's always gonna be people first. Um we all want to work with and collaborate with people that are easy to work with and and get it and understand it and are effective at really communicating. Um, so yeah, people first, people first, music second.

Speaker 5 26:57

Yeah.

Fabian Brown 26:58

We've signed hundreds without listening to the music. Because of who they were as a person. Or or what what person on the on the roster uh referred them to us? Well, if so-and-so referred them, they have to be a great person.

Louis Marks 27:12

I'll clarify that. We've agreed to sign before we listen to the music. Yeah, that's great. I don't want everybody to get the impression that we haven't listened to the music. Um, but usually that's a question that comes up and someone says, but don't you want to hear the demo? Don't you want to hear the album first before you make a decision? And I I just can already tell that the person is authentic.

Nick Petrella 27:34

I'm glad you clarified that, and he was going to bring up his mixtape. Yeah.

Andy Heise 27:41

I'll send you an email.

Nick Petrella 27:43

Oh my God. So I noticed on uh on the Third Way website, uh it's in a few languages, and that it prompts me to ask why you chose to do that, and to what degree should musicians think globally as opposed to only their home country.

Going Global With Language And Markets

Louis Marks 28:03

Wow. So take the second part first. To as far as you can possibly go with it. If you're putting out to a global audience and assume that English is it, you're you're not gonna reach key people. Um first of all, you're just gonna look like American music, which used to be really great, but now it's it's it's important. Um however, you have some choices with this system now, right? There are tools in place that do translation automatically or with a push of a button on your part, um and you have to make those choices. You so you have you have a lot of options. It's it's it's it's not going to be a burden to translate into different languages. Like, you know, we you know Spanish you must be careful with, and we're very careful we hire a translator because uh Puerto Rican Spanish and Mexican Spanish are uh stran who knew in America that there were different languages, yeah. Um we just you know, so we we had to be careful, but I I think it's extremely important because micro local markets, you know, you think globalization, you're like, oh well, we're all connected. Everybody's gonna listen to this song in English, and you know, uh, but but those micro markets where people are speaking their own language, you can't forget, it doesn't matter if you listen to an English language song, when you go home to talk to your mother, you're speaking in the language so so try, try as best as you possibly can. And that's that's why we do it. But we do we have a couple of projects with with Mexico City. Oh, okay. Where we put the we we rap we wrote the press releases in Spanish and in English. Yeah. Great. Um but we want to do more of that. And and look at look at what's happening. Look at Bad Bunny. Look at look at kneecap. They're rapping in Irish. It's like a forgotten language, it seems. Yeah. You know, but not anymore.

Nick Petrella 30:09

And we'll link to them on the website. I mean, anything that you guys mentioned, we'll we'll find it and link to it.

Louis Marks 30:15

Amazing.

Nick Petrella 30:15

Yeah. Unless we can't. That's the right.

Advice On Art, Access, And Success

Andy Heise 30:22

Well, Lewis, Fabian, we've reached the point of the interview where we ask all of our interviewees the same three questions. Uh and the first question is what advice would you give to others wanting to become an arts entrepreneur? Fabian, you want to start?

Fabian Brown 30:35

Don't do it. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Uh okay, moving on. Next question. If you if you're if you're going second, second, second, second. Um no, all all jokes aside, you know, um put your big boy, big girl pants on because it's going to be a crazy ride and it's not going to be easy. Um, and you may wake up one day and feel like you want to throw it all away and just go get a part-time job at, I don't know, Costco or something like that, right? But but if you have thick skin and if you are willing to uh stand in the face of um of obstacles and hurdles, and you have this level of perseverance, you'll be fine. You'll actually wake up and find yourself uh being fulfilled in one way or another. And you may not feel financially fulfilled at first, but hopefully you are fulfilled with the purpose uh of what you're doing every single day. And that's what that's what really drives me. I'm I'm serving something a little bit bigger than myself, not just myself, right? I'm literally getting into the trenches and helping other people, other organizations really find their cells and find their voice. And for me, that's really that's really exciting. And hopefully by proxy, that will come back to me in some kind of karma-driven world, right? So I guess what I'm trying to say is uh have some perseverance, it's not going to be easy, expect the unexpected, and uh put your seatbelt on because it's gonna be a crazy freaking ride.

Louis Marks 32:08

Yeah, right. All right. What comes to mind, what comes to mind is uh decide as early as you possibly can what your unit of measure of success is. Uh and and remember to remind yourself of that. If you just have one unit of measure of success uh and it's dollars, then you're you're in the right country, uh place, state of the world. Um, but that's probably not the case for most people. Uh and you don't get to measure things like respect and relationships and uh social value, you know, and you have to learn how to do that. You have to learn how to measure those things and count them and put them down next to the balance sheet.

Nick Petrella 32:56

What can we do to ensure the arts are more accessible and reaching the widest possible audience?

Fabian Brown 33:04

Be creative and think outside of the framework that you've been trained to think in. Um, you know, kind of going back to what we were speaking about earlier, uh finding a home for this musical art that's not just a Spotify playlist can become challenging. One of the things that we've done here at Third Way was we've connected with museums and cultural centers. And um, as an example, Grounds for Sculpture, Grounds for Sculpture uh received our information for uh an album that we're releasing, Marshall Allen and Jamaladeen Takuma. And they found it quite interesting. In fact, they found it so interesting that they have a residency artist, uh Salvador Jimenez Flores, that is a sculpturist, uh Mexican-American out of Chicago, and they decided to put a presentation on with Marshall Allen and Jamaladeen and Salvador at Grounds for Sculpture for the constituents and opening it up to the public, where we're gonna have a conversation with art and creativity and improvisation, right? Had I stayed in my little thinking box and saying, oh my gosh, this this music must go to this playlist and to this, you know, you know, this media outlet. I know we're picking on Downbeat, but Downbeat comes to mind. Right. If I would have stayed in my box, then it wouldn't have had the opportunity. If I reached out and thought about what other creative places art can be received, um, then that's when doors started opening. So to answer that, just stay creative and and think outside, man. It's gonna take you different places.

Nick Petrella 34:43

Yeah. Lewis?

Louis Marks 34:46

I'd like to think that reach reaching a wide audience. I'm sorry, go ahead. Um I I'd like to think that the the the the wide audience is accessible and it's not a question of reach, it's a question of uh quality and education. I think it's everyone is really accessible to us. Um it's just how do we do two things. One, cut through whatever other uh competing entertainment things are uh uh constantly attacking people. Um and two get people to spend some more time with the art. And I think that the they're both the same question, right? Or the same problem. Um I think we need less reach and more direct communication and education about the value of the art uh and reach people emotionally uh to to do that and connect as as humans that way.

Andy Heise 35:50

Lastly, what's the best artistic or entrepreneurial advice you've been given?

Fabian Brown 36:00

I remember uh a trip Lewis and I took uh to Spain, and uh one of our stops was Cartagena, and we went to go see Chief Ajua perform, and I'm forgetting the name of the venue. Um beautiful venue, I mean, practically a sold-out show, and we uh have dinner afterwards at the at the venue, and we're all talking, and um, you know, it's always special to be in his space and um you know just be in collaboration with. And I don't even know how the topic got brought up, but he said something to the effect of of you know, lead lead with love, have love in your heart, you know, because there's a lot of crazy stuff that's happening in the world, there's a lot of forces against you. But at the end of the day, like if you have this this compassion and this love for the things that you do and for the people around you, no matter what they throw at you, you'll wake up, you'll you'll feel great in the morning, right? And sometimes I I need to to to kind of get a little woo-woo and just kind of be in that space because there's a lot of negative things out there, there's a lot of things against us. So for me, uh, I'm taking Chief's advice and I'm just gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna lead with love. It may not be the answer that you're looking for. That's great.

Louis Marks 37:16

No, that's it's good, but yeah, that's great. Yeah. That just triggered a bunch of responses that that I'm that I've declined uh for for various reasons. Um although I will par I will paraphrase one. Uh someone uh who was often very critical of me looked at what I was doing creatively uh in growing a business, and that person had a pretty strong understanding of the way that the American and world markets were were trending. And he said, You're never gonna make any money doing that. You'll make a living, but you won't make any money. Now it's 40 years later, and he was right. Yeah. But but the living was okay. Yeah. You know, so we're we're gonna advocate, I'm gonna advocate for the concept that it doesn't have to, as an entrepreneur, it doesn't mean that grow, grow, grow, numbers, numbers, numbers or the whole thing. Uh figure out the breadth of it. Yeah. Great question. Yeah, it is a good question.

Nick Petrella 38:31

Well, thank you both for speaking with us. You know, I was trying to come up with a word that explains what you're doing or encapsulates, and I think really what you're doing, it really is noble what you're doing, giving access to musicians and promoting music that might otherwise not get a chance to be produced. Thanks so much for coming on.

Louis Marks 38:49

Thank you. Thanks, thank you so much for the opportunity. Thanks for having us, guys. Thank you.

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